Von Brizee Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 I kind of find it strange that LMG42 men cannot run with their weapon. Is it not the same LMG42 that is found in most German Squads? I know there was a 50 round drum Assault MG42 made but I don't think it was that common. I know all the stuff about how carrying the MG and the ammo is very heavy and all, but there are two men and I think an LMG is only on a bipod. If 2in mortars can run, and even one man schreck teams can run, why not LMG42's? I figure they would tire quickly but sometimes I just need them to escape from somewhere very quickly, such as get from the top floor of a building to the trees right outside of it. I think they could really book it for about 20m and then get tired or weary, or am I wrong? I don't think this will be in CM, but maybe CM2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 The MG42 light MG is the one that is incorporated into individual German squads, and is modeled as such in the game. So, to correct your subject line, the LMG42 can indeed run in CM. The MG42 heavy MG is manned by a team of six and carried more ammunition than its "light" counterpart. While I haven't tried it, I think you might be able to force a MG42 HMG unit to run if you use the platoon-move command. I think someone in another thread said that, but I could be mistaken. -Andrew ------------------ Throw me a frickin' smiley, people! Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Brizee Posted August 20, 2000 Author Share Posted August 20, 2000 That is not what I am talking about. You can buy for support a 6 man HMG42 team or a 2 man LMG42 team. It doesn't let the LMG42 guys run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k: The MG42 heavy MG is manned by a team of six and carried more ammunition than its "light" counterpart. While I haven't tried it, I think you might be able to force a MG42 HMG unit to run if you use the platoon-move command. I think someone in another thread said that, but I could be mistaken. -Andrew <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, you are mistaken. When you make a platoon-move command, every unit involved moves at his own max. I'm also curious about why the LMG team can't run, if them can run when attached to Squads. Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 NO! Not again!!! Look at this, the infamous running mg's thread. 7 pages for your personal entertainment. Enjoy! <hr> Jason: got place for another Searchonaut? ------------------ visit lindan.panzershark.com member of the Combat Mission webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 YES!! You found the thread! I have some stuff written on paper on how best to go about getting a feature changed. The most recent example of this (and there are many) is the discussion on the armor on a Tiger. An example of how NOT to do this is the priceless running with MG thread. I was trying to find this thread as I was going to insert it as a link to show how not to behave. Lindan, would you be so kind as to send this link off to Colin? It should suffice as answer to the question of why HMG42s can't run. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 No. No. No. The famous, gigantic, running HMG thread didn't have much to do with this. It showed HGM's can't run but LMG's can. What is in question here, is why LGM's can run with a squad, but not alone. ------------------ Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanaka@wanadoo.fr Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 Hi, excuse for my english, i am french Why HMG MG 42 couldn't run ? this is simple : did you run with the .50 HMG and all its accessories ? you, never i think. me, never (i am a soldier from the french army). why ? because, you must have 3 packages to move this HMG at hand. The first, MG (barrel, 12 kg + mecanism, 18 kg = 30 kg); the second, tripod : 15 kg; the third, the amunition in case of 50 cartridge, 5 kg each, and with 50 cart. you don't have a good power. each of those packages are very voluminous. You see !!! for the HMG MG 42, this is the same thing, but with less weight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: What is in question here, is why LGM's can run with a squad, but not alone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But the explanation is the same. HMG team, 95 bursts, gun, tripod, 6 guys to carry it Squad 40(?) bursts, gun, 9 guys to carry LMG team 25 bursts, gun, 2 guys to carry. The reason is simply (and again) ammo weight. In effect, it looks to me as if the ammo carried (which is the reason HMG teams can not run) is just a bit less for the LMG team (12.5 bursts, as opposed to 14.1 bursts). That should solve the confusion. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 Does anyone have the actual ammo load of the LMG in question? I'm thinking 25 bursts is something like 250 bullets. That wouldn't prevent running IMO. Also, was the ammo actually divided between the men on the squad? ------------------ Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 20, 2000 Share Posted August 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: Does anyone have the actual ammo load of the LMG in question? I'm thinking 25 bursts is something like 250 bullets. That wouldn't prevent running IMO. Also, was the ammo actually divided between the men on the squad? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jarmo, bursts is my word, I think the correct one is ammo unit or something. I have had a sharpshooter kill an arty spotter team with one unit used up. So unless 'Crack' means he can drill two guys with one shot, an ammo unit is more than one shot/burst. Also, I really think this has been discussed to death in the HMG running thread, including the official stance by BTS on the issue. It is ammo load and nothing else. There really is little need to open the topic again, IMO. And yes, AFAIK the ammo was divided between members of the squad. The MG42 was ther raison d'etre, after all. I am also just surmising that there are 40 units of ammo for the squad MG, it may well be less. Now what would be nice was a dynamic system under which once the ammo load has gone down below a certain level, the unit can run. But I have no clue how difficult that would be to implement and what other issues it would raise. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: It is ammo load and nothing else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't forget that the HMG crew also has to carry a tripod. There are also telescopic sights for an HMG, but I imagine the weight of that is minimal. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shatter50 Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I know what you mean there is nothing worse than your MG42 and 50 cal guys taking for ever to get into position. If I was out on the field and had Sherms and infantry blasting at me I bet I'd go faster than these guys with the heavy machineguns. To remedy this I often put my machinegunners on my tanks for quicker deployment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAR Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 there is really no logical comparison of the .50 cal and the MG42 for ammo load reasons as the MG 42 used roughly a 30-06 round.(Don't know the exact cal 7mm or 8mm) I usually take almost 250 rounds of mixed 30-06 and 7.62 NATO (.308) to the range every Sunday for my Garand and M14. The .50 cal round is absolutely huge in comparison. I understand the tripod factor and other accesories weigh in, but if the LMG 42 has no tripod it should be able to run along with the .30 cal LMG Browning as if it were a 'schreck or 'zooka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I suspect the LMG42 team is weighed down by a heavier ammo load than the LMG42 in a squad. The squad based LMG42 had 3 men to carry gun and ammo, so this might have something to do with the speed difference. Hoever, I will run this by Charles and see what his thinking was when he set the speed. BTW, we only included the LMG42 as a seperate unit because they were assigned to some formations, such as the AT Company of certain division types. Generally they have no place in a CM battle since they correct numbers are found already in the squads. Shatter50, HMGs were not supposed to go on the attack. This is why they suck to move around Check out the Thread From Hell for more about their historical uses and historical limitations. BAR, the flaw in your logic is the quantity of ammo. These guys had THOUSANDS of rounds with them. The heavier the ammo, the less they carry... 5 men MMG 30cal team has 65 units of ammo 6 men HMG 50cal team has 40 units of ammo 6 men HMG 42 team has 95 units of ammo Basically the same per/man weight for each of these three units. The German HMG42 unit has an extra man to carry nothing but ammo. To see a LOT more details about this check out the above mentioned Thread From Hell Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 08-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shatter50 Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Shatter50, HMGs were not supposed to go on the attack. This is why they suck to move around Check out the Thread From Hell for more about their historical uses and historical limitations. Hey guys yes I know this but sometimes a heavymachinegun crew would fall under heavy attack and forced to regroup at another position and in my opinion under overwelming fire there is nothing wrong with a hasty retreat to regroup.And yes I do understand the difficulty of moving such weapons but several me are capable. Thanks for the reply [This message has been edited by Shatter50 (edited 08-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 OK, I was correct. The ammo load per man in the 2 man LMG42 Team is quite heavy. So the choice is for us to either make a ligher unit that can run, but with about 1/2 the ammo, or we leave it as is. Since the LMG42 Team with less ammo would be useless that isn't our pick. Remember what I said above... the LMG42 Team is a specific unit that should only be used when the German TO&E (Tables of Organization and Equipment) calls for it. I can't remember off the top of my head which formations called for LMG42s, but AT formations definately did. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shatter50 Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shatter50: Shatter50, HMGs were not supposed to go on the attack. This is why they suck to move around Check out the Thread From Hell for more about their historical uses and historical limitations. Hey guys yes I know this but sometimes a heavymachinegun crew would fall under heavy attack and forced to regroup at another position and in my opinion under overwelming fire there is nothing wrong with a hasty retreat to regroup.And yes I do understand the difficulty of moving such weapons but several men are capable. Thanks for the reply [This message has been edited by Shatter50 (edited 08-21-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Shatter50, true enough. Problem is that we would have to make a far more sophisticated ammo tracking system. Right now units move at one speed and only one speed. To make a heavy unit move fast they would have to drop most of their ammo. If we allowed that then people would want some ability to recover the ammo if the situation became happier. The thought of doing that is, well, unthinkable So unfortunately, it is going to stay like this for now. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shatter50 Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Hey don,t get me wrong this is still my favorite game in the world and the site is also the best. Absolutly no complaints here. Another thing I this little discussion made me think of is for the future CM why not make a panicing unit run a little fast after all when you have felt the fear of God people tend to run a little faster [This message has been edited by Shatter50 (edited 08-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: I can't remember off the top of my head which formations called for LMG42s, but AT formations definately did. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just guessing, I'd bet any headquarters over the platoon level would have a few around for local security as would the cannon company of regiments. AA units usually had some (12 per battalion according to my source). It also lists variously 136-139 per recon battilion for Panzer or PG divisions; I expect many of those were in squads, but by no means all. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Ahh, so I'm basing my thoughts on a wrong estimate of ammo unit. If HMG has thousands, LMG must have at least a thousand? Or is the point a different fo the two? So how much ammo does one unit represent for the 42? ------------------ Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Brizee Posted August 21, 2000 Author Share Posted August 21, 2000 I didn't know that they were that uncommon. I have been buying them a whole lot in QB;s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Shatter50, no problem Discussions like this is how CM got to be the way it is today (i.e. damned good!). Michael, Platoon HQs did indeed have a MG42. This was, however, mostly used as a spare for the platoon. They probably had a belt or two of ammo for the thing, but that is really only good for about one turn's worth of combat Jarmo, I totally forget. Sometime like 50 rounds or something? Check the Thread From Hell linked to above and I think there is some info in there that might help. Von Brizee, LMG42s were VERY common. However, they have been accounted for by being in each squad already. There is probably better ways to spend your Support points than on the LMG42s. I'd much rather have 3 HMG42s than 6 LMG42s. HMGs are more accurate, have greater staying power, and tote a LOT of ammo. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 MG42s may have a lot of ammo, but Vickers MGs have almost 50% more! In a recent QB vs the AI I had my lone Vickers actually RUN OUT of ammo. Good thing that barrel is water cooled. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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