King Tiger

[Combatboy]

Hey all -- one more thing.

I just noticed that the Waters guy is trying to get someone to talk to him on a different thread, the "Long 88mm" thread, but no one is answering him even though he keeps posting to it. Wouldn't it be nice for someone just to go over and agree with him? It is kind of sad, like someone standing at the corner of a party and no one is talking to him. danielh has posted some neat stuff, can someone just rewrite it a little bit so it agrees with him and post it? I think it would be the nice thing to do for the guy.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Combatboy:

Hey all -- one more thing.

I just noticed that the Waters guy is trying to get someone to talk to him on a different thread, the "Long 88mm" thread, but no one is answering him even though he keeps posting to it. Wouldn't it be nice for someone just to go over and agree with him? It is kind of sad, like someone standing at the corner of a party and no one is talking to him. danielh has posted some neat stuff, can someone just rewrite it a little bit so it agrees with him and post it? I think it would be the nice thing to do for the guy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Darn & I mistakenly thought some here were interested in resolving the KwK.43 penetration issue. Ther reason its posted their is because it belongs their, & since RL provided the 30^ data to BTS his comments are valid I'd think.

As for me I dunno some seem to think my posts here provide useful information obviously you don't, to each his own, I can always go hang out with Fionn on the usernet.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-30-2000).]

[Combatboy]

Seemed resolved to me: not enough evidence and what evidence everyone has is full of problems. I think you mean by resolved is everyone needs to come to your way of thinking. DUDE! I want the 88 to be the baddest gun in the world to, cause I love King Tigers, but I figure if you can't sell the chicken at the market you might as well keep it home and let it lay some eggs. What I mean is you had a chance to do the science thing, and you said you were to practical for science, so who is going to listen to you anymore? Other than me that is, since I think the King Tiger rocks!

Anyway, you should just contact people on the side who agree with you and work on your argument more before you run it back out.

Peace guy! Be happy! Fall break is almost here.

Tom

[Paul Lakowski]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Darn & I mistakenly thought some here were interested in resolving the KwK.43 penetration issue, guess I'll join Fionn on the usernet.

Regards, John Waters

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John I don't think this board is worth the electronic space it occupies, we'll have to resolve these issuses elsewhere

BTW LEE hasn't been spotted on Tank Net for months after Ray Banned him for the kind of rubbish you see here. Kind of points out the difference between boards don't it

I recommend you and Helge join us there along with the gents from the 'old Tankers Net', I must admit Ray and Jeff have done a great job in spite of our initial objections.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Combatboy:

Seemed resolved to me: not enough evidence and what evidence everyone has is full of problems. I think you mean by resolved is everyone needs to come to your way of thinking. DUDE! I want the 88 to be the baddest gun in the world to, cause I love King Tigers, but I figure if you can't sell the chicken at the market you might as well keep it home and let it lay some eggs. What I mean is you had a chance to do the science thing, and you said you were to practical for science, so who is going to listen to you anymore? Other than me that is, since I think the King Tiger rocks!

Anyway, you should just contact people on the side who agree with you and work on your argument more before you run it back out.

Peace guy! Be happy! Fall break is almost here.

Tom<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats fine CB, I'm glad in your opinion its been resolved etc. Now what does that have to do with you singleing me out? what do you care what I post? am I being stalked now?.

And where have I ever stated that I wanted everyone on my side? have you even read anything I posted in the lacking punch thread? I take from the above you never have. If you believe it is so easily settled then ask yourself why the thread hasn't been locked to date.

I posted data from the source CM used to get its 30^ data, it conflicts with what CM uses now & you think that this has no relevance to the discussion nor should i have posted it.

Thats an interesting perspective, as it refelcts a closed mind, oh, I forgot you already said you feel the issue has been resolved, silly me.

Now the alternative is we cut the discussion board out of the KwK.43 discussion completely and continue it directly E-mail with BTS, through perhaphs Fionn, which would appear to be what some ppl want here anyway.

Oh, and a lil note don't bother singling me out in your post's etc, or since we both live in Florida you could stop by and better explain your position to me, in person between classes, or I could visit you at the SPJC campus its not far from me I was their last weekend, & I think I know the place you refered to with your grandfather & benches to as theirs a bookstore near their I frequent.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-30-2000).]

[Combatboy]

Very cool, a discussion group were someone gets banned if they disagree with you! I want one myself, it would be cool!

You guys are funny as heck. People wrote like 5000 words explaining to you why the problem is not a problem and you two like read none of them. I was rooting for you to start, then they convinced me.

I am just a dumb kid, but they said your data was problematic for a bunch of reasons, and people keep reposting those reasons, and then you just put the old record back on and requote the same data. If it had not already been done twice before I would go and cut and paste it back together again for you. But them you would just post the results of that one test again and say, when will it be resolved?

BTW- What College did you go to? I am at SPJC and am looking for a good college other than stupid old USF.

[Combatboy]

Oh yeah, I am almost done reading the book on science my professor gave me, and it looks like Vanir, Slapdragon, and BTS were right about it. Your one set of data, no matter how many people repeat it, would only be what you needed to explore the subject further, and you would need controlled test data of a better quality to actually build a bigger case. Don't freak at me, it is what "Vhost: How Science is Done" says.

I have ordered a better book, but I am not sure I will read it.

King Tigers ROCK!!!

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Combatboy:

Thanks for being so cool Aussie. (The Aussies are kicking butt! What is every other Aussie an Olympis athlete or something. Everytime you turn around there is some race with three of them in it.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

excuse the belated reply, but I hadn't read this post until now!

the reason Australia does well considering it's relatively small population is that the coaches tell the Aussies that's there's free beer at the finished line, but only enough for the first three across the line!

That's enough to get any Aussie running hard!

Mace (this reply in response to a request from AussieSmith)!

[Guest rune]

In an attempt to get this back on thread, and to avoid cheap shots that are being dished out by both sides, does anyone know anything more about the following quite interesting paragraph:

The above test results are preliminary, as the testing was done on guns with varying levels of deterioration: the 100 mm D-10 had fired 400 shots, and the 122 mm D-25 was new. However the difference in our test results is so great that it is unlikely that any necessary adjustments will be more than minor.

The method of evaluating armor penetration at angles of impact ranging from 0 to 30 degrees that is currently in use appears to be inefficient in evaluating the anti-tank guns.

The article in context can be read at:

http://history.vif2.ru/library/weapons5.html

Are they saying the tests are ineffective for at-guns, or for the 100mm and 122mm guns? If the tests are ineffective, why?

Lets keep this on topic, without resorting to cheap shots please..

Rune

[Phil the Dill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Combatboy:

Hey Phil, thanks, I think this thread is ever so much better now that cool stuff is getting talked about -- I hope it reaches a thousand. We are learning about each other's culture and that is way cool.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could become the new: Clean and Educated Cesspool

PHIL

[Phil the Dill]

Maybe I was a little bit hasty in that reply (having not read the last page before the above post). - the Educated and Maybe violent new cesspool, if PzKpfw 1 goes through with his implied threat to harass Combatboys grandfather

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Tread lightly, lest ye step in ****

[Combatboy]

I like it, the intellectual Cesspool. I dubb the King Tiger thread the place were people can ask each other questions about their heritage without getting flamed down. I for one will answer anyone about living in the United States if they will answer questions about living in there own countries. Like: What is the drinking age in Australia and Germany? Just wondering really, not that I will ever get to another country, travel is to hard so I pretty much stay around here.

As for PzKpfw 1 going after Grand or me, he will have to roust an awful lot of geezers to find Grandpa, there are like 30 of them who sit on those benches every day. Likely he would try and Grand would find a new and creative use for his cane . As for me, he can come to SPJC, but although I am easy to spot in the crowd, I wont tell him WHY I am easy to spot in the crowd, so he has to go after a lot of students to find little old me. I am pretty safe I think even if he lives next door. Unless he is some sort of sniper or something, or a private investigator.

Maybe I will start wearing a false beard or a mustache.

You see, the beauty of the internet is he can't find me and we probably live right next door to each other or something. Unless I tell him my address, I am pretty safe. He does not even know which campus of SPJC I go to. Maybe I am at Seminole, maybe St. Pete, maybe Clearwater, who knows! That is a lot of students to roust -- my bet is he isn't even the stalker type anyway, so be happy!!! I am safe from the terrors of the 88L71 hit squad, and Grandpa is a mean SOB so as the aussies say, no worries.

Of course, if he does take me down... AVENGE ME!!!!

Tom

[Combatboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Thats fine CB, I'm glad in your opinion its been resolved etc. Now what does that have to do with you singleing me out? what do you care what I post? am I being stalked now?.

And where have I ever stated that I wanted everyone on my side? have you even read anything I posted in the lacking punch thread? I take from the above you never have. If you believe it is so easily settled then ask yourself why the thread hasn't been locked to date.

I posted data from the source CM used to get its 30^ data, it conflicts with what CM uses now & you think that this has no relevance to the discussion nor should i have posted it.

Thats an interesting perspective, as it refelcts a closed mind, oh, I forgot you already said you feel the issue has been resolved, silly me.

Now the alternative is we cut the discussion board out of the KwK.43 discussion completely and continue it directly E-mail with BTS, through perhaphs Fionn, which would appear to be what some ppl want here anyway.

Oh, and a lil note don't bother singling me out in your post's etc, or since we both live in Florida you could stop by and better explain your position to me, in person between classes, or I could visit you at the SPJC campus its not far from me I was their last weekend, & I think I know the place you refered to with your grandfather & benches to as theirs a bookstore near their I frequent.

Regards, John Waters

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude! The moment you start threatening people's grandfathers is when you are definately going overboard. You are saying here if I mention you in a post anymore you will come after me. As I explained to Phil that is not much of a problem, but you may want to stop and think before you threaten. I could be like 7 feet tall (I am not) and my Grand could be the meanest 70 year old geezer on the block. So, no threats of violence huh? Words only is cool by me.

[Vanir]

OMG, this thread has become so bizare I can't stop laughing. Apologies to John and anyone else involved, but this is just too much

I have a hunch this is going to get locked which is unfortunate. I really want to see how things go between John, Combatboy and his cane-wielding grandpa. Anybody have a penetration table for a wooden cane against a grog's head at range 3 feet and 45^ angle?

Combatboy, if he does take you down I live too far away (Wyoming ) to avenge you. As you said, travel is too hard

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So maybe you should listen to this Vanir guy instead of ignoring him -- he has the best take on the whole thing. - Combatboy

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 10-01-2000).]

[Slapdragon]

I think there is a BTS controversy to cover up the true effects of cane weilding Estonian grandfathers against 30 deg behinds .

Truthfully, I hope they do not lock this up. What sounds like an 19 year old college student doing verbal battle with us oldsters and sounding rather hippy in some ways, while getting people to talk about the olympics and beer drinking is almost to priceless to believe.

John, don't threaten the kid's grandpa -- that is not cool. But the idea of the "geezer" chasing you around Coffee Pot Blvd (I think also I know were Grandpa hangs out) is just to funny to believe.

[M Hofbauer]

stop this silly stuff. I can't shake the feeling all the time that combatboy is just mocking the rest, and read john's post again, he didn't threaten anybody, merely invited you to meet him in person. If combatboy doesn't feel like standing up to his talk then he can simply refuse the invitation. The freedom of choice, Faites votre jeaux.

ANYWAY, I would REALLY appreciate it if we could get back on topic. Don't lock it up just yet because maybe, just maybe, I can supply a graphic comparison between the Pzgr. 39 of the KwK 36 and the Pzgr. 39/43 of the KwK 43. We will see if the two projectiles are (nearly) identical or differ completely and if this would explain anything.

I have personally come to the conclusion that this will logically not resovle the problem of the 88L71 not fitting in with the rest of the guns, because if anything it would be the 88L56 not fitting in, since it is the Pzgr.39 of the KwK that would have been assumed to have the wrong weight.

Still I think it might be interesting so I'll post it nevertheless, if anything it'll show us, roughly only of course, the makeup of both projectiles.

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"Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ)

[Phil the Dill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Combatboy:

I for one will answer anyone about living in the United States if they will answer questions about living in there own countries. Like: What is the drinking age in Australia and Germany?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know the German age. But in Australia the LEGAL age is 18 yrs and our driving age is 16 (which to me seems weird that we can drive before we can drink).

BTW (just to steer this away from banning territory). what is the age in the USA?

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Tread lightly, lest ye step in ****

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phil the Dill:

I don't know the German age. But in Australia the LEGAL age is 18 yrs and our driving age is 16 (which to me seems weird that we can drive before we can drink).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I dunno. Seems like a GOOD idea to me so that young drivers have around 2 years driving experience BEFORE they start guzzling alcohol so that hopefully they are better prepared for the unexpected whilst driving on the roads possibly whilst inebriated (not that I condone drinking and driving in any way).

Just my thoughts on the subject.

REGARDS

Jim R.

[Phil the Dill]

[Berkut]

What has any of this got to do with the original question?

Was a Tiger B ever taken out with a frontal hit, by another tank, during combat?

It's front armour was an impressive 150mm with a 50 degree slope, but it's side armour was only 80mm. The original turret had a shot trap but that was later removed.

So from the side it was as vulnerable as any other tank, but taking it head on would not have been a pleasant prospect at all.

It could despatch any tank it encountered with ease, but Germany was never able to build enough of the beasts.

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BERKUT

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As always feel free to query, deride, or just nod knowingly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Slapdragon]

Hofbauer, I don't think he is being silly there, in nettiquete telling someone you know were they live is usually seen as a threat. I do not think Combat Boy is mocking us. He may be mocking this thread which could well deserve serious mocking, but he has not really been disrespectful of anyone, merely curious.

[Slapdragon]

Besides, look at how much good he has done. The 88 sucks thread was dead into flames with no one listening to each other, and this thread was devolving in the same manner. Now the 88 thread has been reborn and people are being very careful, while this one has gone over a lot of interesting ground, including your information that you can be arrested for being an idiot in Germany. Maybe someone is learning something on this thread since it revived.

[This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 10-01-2000).]

[Michlos]

Ok im gonna try to comment on the initial subject of this thread and I do not wish to be caught up in a flame war or sumthin...

I seem to recall seeing a tank program where they showed a Königstiger that had been knocked out by a shell getting stuck behind the front armor and the turret. This made the crew to bail out since it stoped it from working perfectly. Except for that situation I have never heard of any Königstiger being knocked out by a frontal shot.

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< All gave some, some gave ALL>

Owner of MiNa's CMBO Page

http://www.combat-mission.com

[Slapdragon]

Many, if not most of the monsters were killed from the air, immoibilized by artillery, or broke down and were abandoned.

[M Hofbauer]

ok, board member RMC was nice enough to supply me with an image of a cross section of a KwK36 (88L56) Pzgr.Patr. 36 8.8cm cartridge (from Jentz's book Tiger I & II). This I rescaled to compare it with an image I had of a 8.8cm Pzgr. 39/43 cross-section of the KwK 43 (88L71) in Hahn's work.

Here is the final product, the KwK36's AP cartridge is at left, the KwK43's AP projectile is at right:

I must admit that they look completely identical in construction. The L71 projectile does look a little thicker/more rounded (=voluminous) than the "sharper" L56 projectile upper section, but that is just the cap and doesn't add anything to mass.

Therefore, assuming that the right image is indeed that of a 8,8cm Pzgr. 39/43 and that at the left is that of a 8,8cm Pzgr. 39 (which I do not doubt given the sources) then I am at a loss to explain a difference in weight between the two projectiles shown. IOW, if these two projectiles are the ones used in combat then I think Charles and his sources are right and I and my sources were wrong about a difference in projectile weight.

btw, on a side note this has nothing to do with the question at hand, but just to illustrate the difference: the complete cartridge used by the KwK 43 of the Königstiger is much larger and of different construction than the one used by the KwK 36 of the Tiger I. Unlike the straight shell of the 39 the 39/43 is of bottle-shape and much longer:

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"Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ)