King Tiger

[PzKpfw 1]

Guys, IIRC Valera's native tongue is not english, I believe he uses an translator program to read & respond with, he can coreect me if I'm wrong.

Also, I have Russian friends who have said basicly the same thing Valera did here, as well as email with others, dunno maybe its that Eastren practicality, but I wouldn't know I don't live their.

I think he is correct I'd let this one drop & go back to tanks etc, that or start a new topic especialy for the flood of ppl Valera will have come here.

Rergard's John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-28-2000).]

[Valera Potapov]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

I also think it is a bad idea to speak so strongly for such a large group of people. The history of WWII shows that the Ukranians did not want to be either Soviet or Russian. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please elaborate how the history of WWII shows this? Anti-Soviet troops? Excuse me, this is lame evidence: same troops were in Russia. Troops fought against bolshevik's regime, not strictly against the Russians. I mentioned already, from 1650th the Ukraineans and the Russians interflowed. Three hundred years! If they wished to separate, they would separated. In fact, they didn't.

I also think it is a bad idea to speak for 50 billion Ukraineans. How can you know what they want? How can you know what each Ukrainean want?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

10 million were starved and worked to death by Stalin before the war...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, Stalin was a single person! Other Russians cannot be responsible for his deeds. Also, Stalin was Georgian, not Russian.

...many actively fought against the Red Army during the war, there were anti-Soviet partisans

[Valera Potapov]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC:

I see you think it absurd that someone who is not a Russian would be capable of distinguishing between the various nationalities the comprised the USSR or of having an informed opinion on the subject. Some of us have resided in the USSR and have seen first hand the fabled non-russian peoples. If Russian is synonymous with the other nationalities then why were there 16 republics? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why U.S.A. have 50 states? Think about it.

[Valera Potapov]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Guys, IIRC Valera's native tongue is not english, I believe he uses an translator program to read & respond with, he can coreect me if I'm wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will

I don't use any translation software or so. My native language is Russian, that's why my English isn't as fluent as yours.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Valera Potapov:

I will

I don't use any translation software or so. My native language is Russian, that's why my English isn't as fluent as yours.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, it soon will be

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[RMC]

Valera's english is very good. Translation software would not be understandable the way he is.

Valera,

The 50 US states are administrative units whose names do not reflect any separate nationalities. Those in the USSR did though there were attempts at russification of the various national groupings which combined with relocation policies did dilute those nationalities somewhat.

I stumbled across a handy quote that may address our divergent views:

"The concept of 'soviet man,' which claimed to represent a civilizational breakthrough, was one of the best publicized of the supranational identities. Yet it was often a convenient disguise for Great-Russian chauvanism."

Misha Glenny - The Balkans: Nationalism, war and the Great Powers 1804-1999.

[Combatboy]

I think this is great guys! This one Russian dude not only knows about tanks (great web site man, I mean really. I am going to throw down about the other stuff but the site is Rockin!!!) but he knows what race people are better than the people themselves! AND he thinks that cause I live in Florida I am a different race than someone from Georgia!!! That is so funny I spit coke on my monitor and my mom thought I was sick.

Then you have this other guy PzKpfw 1 who says, er yeah I agree!! with the Russian guy just because the Russian guy is his expert witness. That is because he was getting his butt whipped over this tank thing. Hey, I if I agree with you will you give me 20 bucks!!!

Next you have this Paul Lakowski, who started the whole race flame thing cause he was gettin his butt whipped, and now that he got his butt whipped on the race thing he wants to go back to tanks.

(I am no science guy, but how do they know how far away to fire a bullet so it doesn't effect the other bullets, did they say? Seems silly to shoot that tank full of holes like that. Besides, the King Tiger Rocks! I told you I was a King Tiger Bigot!!!!)

Next you have the saner heads, RMC, Haufbauer, Vanir, who think they are going to change these guys minds by presenting argument. I love these guys for how they are like trying to teach school, but no one is listening at all.

And you got the makers of the game, the guys you gotta convince, and they are the ones these people are pissing off the most!

(My favorite is still the guy who stuck his head in and said, duh, I can't figure out the tarot cards).

I have decided to be the dorky kid who tells it like it is (well, I am a dorky kid, at least I don't hang out with the Jocks) in this soap opera. I hope the guys who run this thing never shut it down. No way is anyone going to get anything done, unless you have the Hofbauer guy and the Vanir guy (I assume guys?) form their own chat group on this

As the Turret Turns is the funniest show on the web!!!!!

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Combatboy:

Then you have this other guy PzKpfw 1 who says, er yeah I agree!! with the Russian guy just because the Russian guy is his expert witness. That is because he was getting his butt whipped over this tank thing. Hey, I if I agree with you will you give me 20 bucks!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Realy, I think this is great to as we get Combatbuoy to chime in that he wants to 'throw down' & oh, for joy, he decided to speak for me as well.

I agreed? where did I do that? I said I have had Russian friends explain it to me in a similar fashion as Valera. I sugested he was correct in that we not go into this topic here, as IMO it would cause problems, as evident from your post my hunch was correct.

An expert witness?? where did that come from?, hmm & what would I use Valera as a witness for? please enlighten me.

You have a problem with Valera take it up with him, seems you prefer to drag evereyone else into this, as he apperently has a diferent opinion of what Soviet, Russian, Georgian etc, is then you or I, as I said I wouldn't know don't nor have ever lived their.

As to the rest Charles & Steve are big boys they can take care of themselves. Your entitled to your opinion, as am I, CB just try to get what someone else, says or you incorectly percieved they said correct; before stateing it as fact, Or are you useing tarot cards now to divinate hidden meanings behind the lines.

As for getting my butt whipped so what if I do? I don't realy care about it, even if it does happen, as I said, I want to get to the bottom of this, so either your part of the problem or part of the solution, your choice, you make it whenever you post as above.

Everyone has diferent perceptions its like a car accident, I can interveiw 10 witnesses & get 10 totaly diferent statements from the same incident, and it works the same on text based conversations as well, as ppl percieve things that were never intended to be reflected and react to phantom images.

It's funny the original thread was never as bad, as this one is turning into.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-28-2000).]

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

In the mean time I can clear upthis discussion we had earlier about tank targets with multiple holes as valid targets.

They are in fact valid targets. In a test of sub ordnance 2.5 :1 L/d[ length to depth] Ogive uncapped steel projectiles striking various steel targets @ ~ 400-800m/s with T/ds of 1:1 & 4:1 and plate hardness of

300- 520 VHN.

The researchers report

"6 to 8 shots were impacted on each plate [23 projectile diameters on each side]. It was also ensured that the centre-to-centre distance between any two impact craters on the plate was at least 4 times the diameter

of the projectile , while the distance from the impact centre to the edge of the plate was at least twice the projectile diameter. Whenever these distance criteria were not met, the craters were not considered for

further analysis."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are some obvious problems here.

First, there is no mention of how they decided that a distance of 4x the diameter of the projectile negates any concerns about weakening of the plate due to spalling or micro fractures. As far as we know from your post they picked this formula arbitrarily. Where is the test data that proves this negates the problems associatied with multiple impacts upon a single plate?

There is a reason respected ballistics laboritories test using a single shot per plate.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Paul:

So most of the shots on the Tiger -1 and the King Tiger where infact valid test shots.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is assuming a great deal. Even if we were to accept the idea that moving the shots 4Xdiameter away from each other negates single plate concerns, it is obvious the people who conducted these tests were not following this proceedure. A casual look at that KT makes this obvious. In order to say "most" shots were valid we need to know the following things: total number of shots taken, location of each shot, and the order in which the shots were taken when different caliber guns are used in the same test. The Russian report makes no mention of any of these things.

If we were to further assume that indeed most of the shots were valid, the question becomes: Which ones? Since the Russians were firing different caliber guns at the same target, we must know the order in which they were fired and their exact hit location in relation to each other to determine which are valid and which are not. Since we do not have this data, all the shots must be taken with a grain of salt.

Michael Graham

p.s. Combatboy: Thanx for the new sig

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So maybe you should listen to this Vanir guy instead of ignoring him -- he has the best take on the whole thing. - Combatboy

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 09-28-2000).]

[Paul Lakowski]

Micheal , all due respect but this is the publication of a ballistic scientist on one of the most prestigious science publications in the world. These scientific papers don't see publication until they have been reviewed by a jury of there peers. Inaddition this

was published in '95 and there has been another paper published since then developing the work further. I will read this again, but I don't recall there being any problem with the penetration criteria or conditions of the test.

I think they do know what there doing.

As to the other postings in the last 24 hours, they do not deserve comment yet.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

I think they do know what there doing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They very well may. However, you addressed the first paragraph of my post but ignored the last 2. Even if their testing methods are legit, it would be a mistake to apply this to the Russian KT test. Reread my last post for the reasons.

Michael Graham

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So maybe you should listen to this Vanir guy instead of ignoring him -- he has the best take on the whole thing. - Combatboy

[Aussie Smith]

It's funny - every time I think ‘sense is going to win out’ someone comes along to prove me wrong (John - I'm not alone here huh ?).

Let me just point out one minor detail - this IS a discussion board - that means that divergent and polar views will be displayed and hopefully discussed over in a clear, intelligent and hopefully mature manor. Need I say that taking a position purely to cause emotive argument is both disruptive and IMO bloody self-centred!

This thread was insightful and beneficial up until the race argument raised its ugly head and it shames me that even across a medium like the net (that is supposed to cross all barriers) we can get bogged down in arguments that cause distress to some and general disgust in others.

I implore you all to drop this slinging mud match and assess each argument on its merits. For me I don't give a toss if it's Russian or Soviet/Redneck or Rebel etc etc perhaps if we just concentrated on the issue and not on the periphery then we may actually achieve something.

I'm sorry I posted this - call me a dreamer - but I'd like to think that here - we're all considered and judged on our merits not our race/colour/creed.

Craig

[Paul Lakowski]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir:

They very well may. However, you addressed the first paragraph of my post but ignored the last 2. Even if their testing methods are legit, it would be a mistake to apply this to the Russian KT test. Reread my last post for the reasons.

Michael Graham

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Micheal I did read your post and as to the pics there is another way to deterimine lack of proper confinement in a ballistic test and thats the appearance of bulge or cracks around the impact point.

Of the 59-61 impact points shown in Jentz Tiger tanks [pp 16 & 17],look like 32 meet the critera and of the rest 11 groups of shots of which the first should have been valid. As to bulging and cracking I count 7 hits .

At to turret hits [pp20-21] I count 17 of 30 valid hits and 6 groups of hits for which the first should be valid.I count alteast 3 hits where bulging or cracking ruled out the hit.

Sounds like most to me but you call it half if you like.I note in the text that several hits mentioned are ruled invalid , so theres every reason to use the results listed, instead of ruling the whole exercise as invalid due to the target being'swiss cheese'

Now I'll go look at the KT on Valera's website.

Rgds Paul.

[Combatboy]

Hey Aussie Boy, what you gotta realize is this thread went flame a long time ago when Mr. Canada told everyone they were being bad to Eastern Canadians, and that means you probably wont ever get it back. And if you cannot talk about bigotry, which the board has plenty of, then it just hides its head. Don't blame me on the flames here, it started when those 88L71 (anyone know what the L means?) guys self destructed against Vanir and Slapdragon. I think if you want an adult thread you should have one, but this aint it and it ended with the guys who are trying to ignore it and call a Chicken a Cow and make everyone believe it!

(By the way, didn't they have the Olympics in Melbourne? Just askin for another chat group).

I agree with you that when the Canadian did the bigot thing about Easterners it was sad, thread was interesting to read until then, but he did it, and you can't just start a flame war then sit back and say, oh my -- everybody is so off topic.

At my church they have a sign over the door that means a lot to me: "Reap the House You Keep." Well, the Sherman thread, the Sniper thread, and even the Caspar Weinberger thread are not like this one, they keep an orderly house and reap a real nice discussion. The Eastern Canadian guy killed it long back, so why not just have fun, point out flaws (and thank you for telling me mine!!! I like it! ) and relax. Maybe a new thread will start in a month and a different cast will be back, and then you can read something worth while!

Hey Vanir, I am very happy about getting to be someone's sig!!!! Thanks a lot, it is great. I don't think it will help anyone listen to you here, but it is very nice.

And BTS- The game is way cool. Thanks for making it. We may start a club at St. Petersburg Junior College, I will tell you if we do!

[Aussie Smith]

Combat...

I acknowlege your points - but lets just say I would like reason to prevail.

Yes in 1956 the Olympics were in Melbourne.

And just FYI I was not just highlighting you in my previous post but a view on the total take on the way this thread is/was heading.

Cheers

Craig

Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Oi Oi Oi

Ps Statistically Australia is about 4 times ahead of everyone else in the medal count for a country with >20m people we're doing bloody well

[Paul Lakowski]

OK just had a look at Valeras website I make out ~ 43 impacts of which about ~19 are valid and there are atleast 5 groups of shots with 2 or more impacts of which the first hit should be valid.

It should be remembered that even the 'invalid' shots still count for something as the average resistance can be approximated as follows....

distance from penetration

<PRE>

1 diameter 2diameters 3 diameters 4 diameters

60-70% 80-90% ~ 95% ~ 100%

</PRE>

Looks like most of the penetrations can be used [adjusting for loss of penetration].

Rgds Paul

[Paul Lakowski]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Combatboy:

Hey Aussie Boy, what you gotta realize is this thread went flame a long time ago when Mr. Canada told everyone they were being bad to Eastern Canadians, and that means you probably wont ever get it back. And if you cannot talk about bigotry, which the board has plenty of, then it just hides its head. Don't blame me on the flames here, it started when those 88L71 (anyone know what the L means?) guys self destructed against Vanir and Slapdragon. I think if you want an adult thread you should have one, but this aint it and it ended with the guys who are trying to ignore it and call a Chicken a Cow and make everyone believe it!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would just like to point out to you that I didn't start the racist thing nor did I continue with it. It started when someone implied that Russian/Soviet test were suspicious for no other apparent reason than they were Russian/soviet.

I asked several people to independantly look my post and give me there opinion [whether it was racist or not] and no one thought it was. I might also point out that you by your postings of the misrepresented facts and postings of 'the Canadian' etc are not helping this discussion.Half the time I don't know who you mean by the vague references to 'him' and that 'that guy', etc etc.

So please stop, Rgds Paul.

[Valera Potapov]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC:

The 50 US states are administrative units whose names do not reflect any separate nationalities. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The same was in USSR. Although it was initially divided by national attributes, later this division meant only administrative. Republicks didn't mean a nation's reservations like Indian reservations in USA.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC:

Those in the USSR did though there were attempts at russification of the various national groupings which combined with relocation policies did dilute those nationalities somewhat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Russification? Look at USA again: there are a lot of big and small nations live here, they're all speak English. Englification!

[Guest Big Time Software]

I agree with Valera, John, and Craig that we should drop the discussion about Russia/Soviet/et all. As Valera pointed out himself, if I ask one person and get a response, and he asks one person and gets a different response, what does that prove? That people are different, and that is about all

I can already tell that the people engaged in this mini-debate will not be easily swayed into a new way of thinking (including myself), so unless we are prepared to make a HUGE go of it (which will most likely not change viewpoints), there is no point.

By the way Valera, your English is quite good

Steve

[M Hofbauer]

Paul Lakowski, yes of course there is more to penetration than that. What I meant was that Charles is right in disregarding the projectile mass for his rough comparison between 7.5 and 8.8 A performance increase if projectile mass would be the same for L56 and L71.

Combatboy, "L" is for Länge / Length, I think. It is the length of the gun barel measured in the caliber (=diameter of bore). So, in theory, a 8.8cm L/56 is 8.8cm x 56 long. One has to be aware though that often the L-length isn't integer calibers, but approximations, and that between the angloamericans and the germans there is a difference in measuring barrel length (barrel vs. barrel+chamber) and caliber (field to field vs. groove to groove).

Aussie Smith, to continue on this O/T olympics thing, I was indeed asking myself whether the way above average medal performance of Australia has always been like that? Or is it a thing of these year's olympics? They are doing way beter than Great Britain. What puzzled me even more though is the fact that apparently INDIA with a billion people doesn't have a single medal, not even a bronze yet. Do they not participate or what? They must be having the worst medals/population ratio around. - Wait a minute. I re-checked. India now has a bronze.

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"Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ)

[RMC]

Valera,

I think you are just playing now. You do undertand of course that the united states is a multiethnic society and that there are different groups but that none of these groups can be identified with a state. Virginians are not an ethnic group. Texans are not an ethnic group. The georgians have no relation to the ethnic group of georgians in the causcasus.

In contrast all of the republics of the USSR were based on some form of nationality. Not all nationalities were honored with having a republic. Russification was a policy that limited non-Russian cultural expression. It was not entirely successful otherwise the former soviet republics being made of up peoples who were Russians by another name would not have sought independence in 91. The soviet union would have changed to Russia and no other countries would have been split off. The most familiar examples to the west are the three baltic states all of whom managed to maintain their own separate national identity under the soviet yoke despite the large influx of Russians. The soviet regime may have regarded these republics as administrative units but they meant more the the original peoples in them.

Learning to speak english is an ingredient in social success in the USA. It is not mandated as the numerous movements like English First! with their attempts to having english established as the official language demonstrate. There are sizeable populations that do not speak english in the US. Large groups of hispanics and some asian groups are able to maintain their language and traditions. My brother taught english at an armenian school in Los Angeles. It was the only instruction they received in english. The policy of russification was designed to extinguish nationalities to ensure that your premise of Soviet = Russian would actually come to be, but it was not successful.

[This message has been edited by RMC (edited 09-29-2000).]

[Aussie Smith]

Hof

LOL - its very simple - we're just competative bastards - it comes from the fact that to get noticed on the world stage we have to do something well - and so we all voted and sport was chosen .

As to the Brits - well since their country never sees the sun they only practice at being good in indoor sport like pool etc.

Seriously, no idea really I guess we're just good sportspersons.

Craig

[M Hofbauer]

Bob,

It is not mandated as the numerous movements like English First! with their attempts to having english established as the official language demonstrate.

wait a minute- did I get this right, are you saying that english is not the official american language? wow...in school, english, we had learned that some hundred years back the americans which back then were just a bunch of english, irish, germans and french etc., plus the indians, agreed on english as the official language. Or if they didn't agree on it, at least it developed to be.

so you are saying that there are armenian american citizen which are born in the US, grow up never learning english, go to a school where they are educated in armenian, make their armenian-american high-school diploma, go into politics, become president etc. pp. without ever having to speak english?

if so, then this raises an interesting question. The US Code is in english (why?). Is there a US Code in Armenian? If there is, and the two versions differ in a critical phrasing, which is the authoritative version, the english one or the armenian one? or the Kaswaheli one?

cookie question: what language was the bill of rights and the declaration of independence written in?

a) armenian

swaheli

c) english

please note that I am not trying to offend you, I am just genuinely interested and thoroughly puzzled.

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"Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ)

[argie]

Steve,

lock this thread!

The next thing is someone asking how many native Nations have existed in the USA territory two centuries ago and how many there are today to justify the Englification thing

Ariel

[Slapdragon]

My how the subject has changed. To follow up on this fascinating thread:

The United States has no national language, since to mandate language would be a violation of civil rights. Some States have passed English Only laws, but they only cover in what language official documents are published. Many areas have more than one language for official documents including Lousiana which uses French as an alternate, while Florida and Texas publish all documents in Spanish and English. Oklahoma and Western North Caroilina have a system of translating public documents into Cherokee, mostly as an honor since very few Cherokee do not speak English. Cherokee is also one of the easiest languages to learn written and spoken. If you can speak Cherokee, you can read Cherokee since it is a phonetic language.

That is not to say English runs second. In only 35 counties does English represent less that 50 percent of the main language of the county, out of tens of thousands of countries.

The United States did participate in an "Americanisation" almost as systematic and as brutal as the Russians, ending at Wounded Knee in the 1880s. The Native American population never quite fit in with the European settlers, so they were forced to change or hunted down and killed with their children taken. Amazingly, there is still a strong Native American population in many areas, although small, which has never adopted the European style of the country, including vibrant Hawaiian and Inuit groups.

Still, you can go to many parts of the United States were possesion of a second language is a must (and the average US American is rather pig headed about learning another language -- few really do. That is in part because the country is huge so few people visit another country, unlike Europeans who think of nothing to go to another country on a day trip to shop). I learned Spanish working in Miami, and I learned French in Vermont (and Canada) and no one stops me from writing to my friends in those languages or even teaching in them (which makes my head hurt). My office mate Pasha Goreli is from Kharkov, speaks German, Russian, and Ukranian (he is though ethnically Russian and a former Soviet Armour Officer but apparently not a good one, he spent a year in jail in the military for moonlighting on a local newspaper ) and has taught classes at my State run college in Russian without hinderence or sanction -- to other Russian speakers of course.

Finally, if you are arrested in this country it is required that you are read and understand your constitutional rights. The courts have established firmly that this must be done in the language you are most comfortable in and if you are tried or sentenced, you must be able to read an official copy of all transcripts translated into the language, with real time translation during the trail, and those documents are official documents. It is up to the law enforcement to provide this service or they cannot try or convict you, and you are not required to know or speak in English during proceedings against you. The only time this is not true is if the prosectution can prove you speak English well enough to understand what is happening.