tank_41 Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 After playing 15 or so scenarios in CM, I now come to the conclusion that the computer AI does cheat and the cheating gives computer AI an unfair advantage over human players. We all know that CM breaks the ground in terms of mixing up the real-time and turn based style of playing. Each turn represents a mere 60 seconds real time. You issue the command before the turn and you can watch the action via various movie play back options. Sounds great! But I found that the computer AI does not just issue the command at the beginning of each turn, but also modify the movement, fire order, etc for each unit based on what happened during the turn. Here is a typical example to demonstrate this I was in a street fight, and put one of my Tigers in a T section street, with its gun pointing at the intersection, hoping to ambush any enemy tanks passing by. Now, a sherman controlled by AI did show up, offering my Tiger a great side kill opp. However, the first shoot by the Tiger missed. To my amazement, the sherman immediately backed off and disappeared from my LOS. Has anyone followed me so far? The point is that the computer AI realized that, during the play of the turn, it was attacked from the side, and issued the order to back off to a safe play (out of my LOS). This has to be a inter-turn decision as the AI has no way of knowing the presence of my Tiger prior to the start of the turn, when it makes the movement plot. Dont tell me that AI is smart enough to enter a move order immediately followed by a reverse order just to scout the area. I have played this situation many times and I can see AI doing this only at the intersection where it got ambushed. On the other hand, if the Sherman were in my side, and I ordered it to enter an ambushed area, the best it would ever do is to turn it turret and hope to have a chance to fire back, but never back off. tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Actually, that's normal, and your guys can do it to. If I understand the game correctly, each unit is controlled by a "TacAI" that can react dynamically to certain situations that arise during the action phase. Backing up and popping smoke is a common reaction to unexpected/superior fire. -Andrew ------------------ Throw me a frickin' smiley, people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 I think this is a misunderstanding. There are three levels of AI in the game, and the action you describe was undertaken by the TacAI, which carries out orders during the turn. It would do the same for your troops. And damn, Andrew beat me to it. Do a search on 'AI levels' or something, or hope for Jason and the Searchonauts. It is not cheating. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Its called the miracle of Tac AI ! Tactical Atificial intellegence. It works the SAME for both human players and computer opponents. Many people here will tell you the AI is not really that hard to beat. OK it is sometimes hard to beat. IT is after all, VERY VERY good AI that directs the computer opponent. There are (as I understand it) 3 levels of AI and the most relevant here is the Tac AI which every unit use to keep itself out of SERIOUS trouble by instantly issuing a reverse order when a serious threat like an anti tank team is spotted half way into an order to advance. Works the same for ALL units on both sides. I truly believe Steve and Charles when they state the AI DOES not cheat. Sorry but it is just VERY high quality AI. -tom w ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 It happens all the time. The "flaw" that you are talking about is the very thing that makes this game great TAC AI. Look at it this way from the Shermans point of view. "Well Commander I had Johnson drive the tank into the city and buttoned her up good watchin for snipers. I was cautious because I had heard there was Panzers around. Sure enough we go past a blasted blind turn and their sits one of those damned Tigers of theirs. Damn Kraut missed though with his surprise shot. Johnson hit the brakes and slammed her in reverse. Damn I think Lewis was hitting the smoke before I even ordered it. We are lucky to be alive." See now try to find that in any other game. And Tac AI works for you as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Your own tank will escape too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eridani Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Don't tell me you've never had ur men turn around and run away when faced with something big that could make them very unhappy... It happens to me ALL the time. What you are seeing is simply the tacAI of the computer's troops kicking in, pissing in their pants, and going the other way. This is the same TacAI that will kick in with your men too. Trust me, I've seen it countless times, its definately not cheating. do a search for tacAI for more information. -EridanMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 My god...so many identical answers to a simple questions...hehe, well, no harm done. -Andrew ------------------ Throw me a frickin' smiley, people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank_41 Posted July 25, 2000 Author Share Posted July 25, 2000 I know there is a TacAI in the system, but how come my tank never back off from the threat? Does computer-controlled AI have a more sophisticated TacAI than human player's? Also, the situation I described does not just show up in the street fighting. I have seen enemy tanks, for countless times, disappearing from my LOS and hiding into houses, trees, hills, etc while fired upon, but never seen my tanks taking the similar action. Somehow, I just feel the TacAI in my side is so much dumber than computer's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank_41 Posted July 25, 2000 Author Share Posted July 25, 2000 KillMore and others: I know my infantry troops often seek covers under heavy fire (controlled obviously by TacAI, which is great), but.... I seldomly see my tank doing this. 99% of the time, my tank would turn over its turret and react to the threat by firing back (we assume the first shoot by enemy missed), and it hardly ever thinks that perhaps retreat is a better alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Don't know what to tell you pal other than play the game some more. I've seen my guys back out of trouble and pop smoke many times. It doesn't always happen but it does happen. And I've seen the Tac AI sit a tank in a deadly situation just fat, dumb and happy waiting to get killed. I've seen infantry under mortar fire run to the middle of the road, hesitate, turn one way, turn the other and finally run back to the side of the road. It has, IIRC, a lot to do with the experience level of your crew. If they are top notch they'll react quicker and more appropriately. If they're rookies ... they're probably dead meat. Trust us on this one Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 "Dont tell me that AI is smart enough to enter a move order immediately followed by a reverse order just to scout the area. " Ok, I won't tell ya. ianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tank_41: KillMore and others: I know my infantry troops often seek covers under heavy fire (controlled obviously by TacAI, which is great), but.... I seldomly see my tank doing this. 99% of the time, my tank would turn over its turret and react to the threat by firing back (we assume the first shoot by enemy missed), and it hardly ever thinks that perhaps retreat is a better alternative.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A lot depends on the quality of your crew. What was this particular tank crew's quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank_41 Posted July 25, 2000 Author Share Posted July 25, 2000 "A lot depends on the quality of your crew. What was this particular tank crew's quality?" Like I said, it is not just one incidence. But since I play German most of the time, I assume they are mostly regular to elite tank crews. I haven't play Americans that much. Could it be possible that the TacAI for German panzers is less flexible than that for Americans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Hi Tank 41 yopu say your Tac AI is dumber Well it will "react" in a dumber fashion if your men or crews have less experince. There 5 or 6 levels of experinence and there is NO doubt that more experienced crews and men fight better faster and smarter. If you are playing with anything less than "regular" men or crews at the very least the the AI that guides them may do dumb things for them and it may do it painfully slow. Experience of the crew or men in question is a BIG factor. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 > Like I said, it is not just one incidence. > But since I play German most of the time, Well, there you go....the Germans in their Tigers really don't have to be as afraid as the yanks do in their shermans. Maybe that's why you don't see your guys panic as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank_41 Posted July 25, 2000 Author Share Posted July 25, 2000 ALERT! SPOIL INSIDE! I dont buy this experience level much. Here is a perfect example in VBT scenario and I urge everyone here to try it: In about the 2nd or 3rd turn into this scenario, you should be able to move Wittman, argulably one of the best tank commanders in WWII, into the outskirt of the town. Most likely, enemy tanks have laid down the smoke and hide outside of your LOS. Do this experiement, order your Wittman move directly through the smoke so that it faces numbers of enemy tanks all of the sudden, I am willing to bet my money here (as I tried many time myself) that Wittman would never back off into the smoke to avoid exchanging fire with 3 to 5 tanks at the same time. The end result is mostly likely a dead Tiger on the road On the other hand, about into the 10th turn into the scenario, German would get 3 Tigers and a PzIVH, and Brits getting a bunch of Shermans plus a few deadly FireFlies. If you park you Tigers right under the victory flag, they will go on and exchange fires with Shermans and FireFlies. Note now that computer-controlled FireFlies would lay smoke, hide, and reappear back to shoot at your Tigers. At this very scenario, the tactical reaction from one of the best tank commanders at the time (Wittman) can not even match up against a few panic brits 3rd rated crews. [This message has been edited by tank_41 (edited 07-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GI Tom Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Also, something else to keep in mind. The TacAI is coming into play AFTER you have given your tank the order. It's operating under YOUR orders until it hits a situation that is questionable, (the appearance of the Tiger) at which time it evaluates and determines if it can still follow that order. Someone please correct if I'm wrong here. If you put a hunt order on the tank, it will do it's best to fulfill that order. You asked it to go to that spot hunting. Well, it did, and it found a Tiger. Now the question the TacAI has to answer is: "Hmm..we're a Sherman, they are a Tiger, my Co told me to go here on hunt or move or whatever.." Even sometimes when trouble is brewing, sometimes it will carry out the order, sometimes it won't. Just like when your infantrymen run for cover. I'll bet dimes to Navy beans that there were times when you've wanted your infantrymen or someone else to keep advancing even though they (or rather the TacAI)decides not to. Not arguing with you, just attempting to clarify. And please, if I'm way off base here, someone tell me so, but that is my understanding of the TacAI and how it works. Page 56 and 57 in the manual clearly explains about the TacAI. GI Tom ------------------ To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 tank, this is pretty straightforward... Most of the German armor you use is SUPERIOR to the average Sherman. You say you usually play as German, and that is the reason why you dont see your tanks reverse out of there as often. It does happen, I assure you. I hae a Panzer IV, who has popped smoke and reversed against my orders 3 times already in one scenario. Its probably because I am asking him to move towards a Sherman Jumbo, which, to bring us full circle, is a superior tank. Try playing as the allies for awhile against german armor, I am certain you will see plenty of this happen to your own men. Another indicator to you should be that there are this many people playing, and posting messages and you are the first to "notice" this AI imbalance. It would have certainly come up before if it existed. Hope that helps.... Later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 So how come when my Tiger takes a gun hit (damaged) from a clearly ID'd Firefly at 500 yds, it just sits there and waits for the killing shot like a lamb to the slaughter? The neighbours must think I'm insane as I can't help yelling "Smoke! Back up dammit! Reverse! Reverse!" Nope -- just sits there and gets splanged by the "inferior" Sherman and won't take an evasive maneuver to save its life, literally. EDIT: Hmm... Maybe I should yell in German. ------------------ It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE. [This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 07-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderC Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 I agree with tank_41 1000%. I think the computer tacAI is different from (and superior to) the human player tacAI. I've seen the computer tacAI execute complex reactionary maneuvers such as reverse, turn, pop smoke, advance, etc to evade and then attack enemy tanks that I've never seen it do as the human player. At least for armor. For infantry it seems more equivalent. For example, how do you give orders for your tank to advance through smoke, fire a shot, then pop more smoke, reverse, maneuver behind a building then pop more smoke, advance through it, fire another shot, then reverse into the smoke again? I've seen the computer (tac?)AI do this over and over again, but I've never been able to get my tanks to do this, regardless of side and experience level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eridani Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 Simple Pause for 40 seconds, move forward, and then next order give a reverse out. OR hunt forward and reverse out.. I'm willing to bet a big part of the problem is your ordering your tanks to fast instead of move or hunt, therefore they aren't looking around themselves all that much and don't notice or react in time to enemy armor. I do have to say, the AI does not cheat, and the computer tac ai is the same one that we get. BTS has made this clear, and it makes so sense for them to do otherwise. I personally have no problems of this kind... my men react just as intellegently as the Computers, and I've been playing since the beta demo was released a little less than a year ago. try slowing down and giving your men time to react, you might like your results better. I assure you, you are the cause of the great majority of the error you blame on your men. -EridanMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 I should note that when playing as the allies, which I mostly do, my tanks invariably pop smoke and flee at the first scent of cat. I only wish German armour (when I'm playing them) had the same self-preservation instincts. There's a hell of a lot of big game hunters out there. I'm also annoyed that the Tac A/I, while executing a Hunt command, will not stop the vehicle to engage anything less than a tank or gun. It rolls blissfully on while trying to engage fast-moving halftracks &c., reducing its gun accuracy and usually time in view. On the other hand, when it spots something that can kill it, it stops to engage in a quick draw gunfight! ------------------ It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Alkema Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 My favorite TacAI behavior is for outgunned infantry to hunker down (ignoring orders to run for their lives) until their morale hits "Broken" and THEN run, often in some direction other than friendly lines. It may be realistic, especially for regular or green troops, yada yada yada, but still darned annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted July 25, 2000 Share Posted July 25, 2000 I have to say that upon consideration I believe there's a certain grain of truth in this argument to me. Granted I play as the Germans most times. But I have had plenty of Mk IV's, and they've seemed dumb. The opfor AI just seems to be able to bring off a more complex and agile sequence of events than that which is controlling your units. Now obviously this claim may be specious based on how the AI is programmed. Probably Only Charles knows that. But it just seems to me that my guys don't get a fair shake sometimes. Perhaps this is balanced in the long run by the fact that I can instill greater tactical purpose in my units than the AI. Still, it seems that I die more often because of it... ianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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