AI cheat in CM

[tank_41]

After playing 15 or so scenarios in CM, I

now come to the conclusion that the computer

AI does cheat and the cheating gives computer

AI an unfair advantage over human players.

We all know that CM breaks the ground in

terms of mixing up the real-time and turn

based style of playing. Each turn represents

a mere 60 seconds real time. You issue

the command before the turn and you can watch

the action via various movie play back

options.

Sounds great! But I found that the computer

AI does not just issue the command at the

beginning of each turn, but also modify

the movement, fire order, etc for each

unit based on what happened during the turn.

Here is a typical example to demonstrate this

I was in a street fight, and put one of my

Tigers in a T section street, with its gun

pointing at the intersection, hoping to

ambush any enemy tanks passing by.

Now, a sherman controlled by AI did show

up, offering my Tiger a great side kill opp.

However, the first shoot by the Tiger missed.

To my amazement, the sherman immediately

backed off and disappeared from my LOS.

Has anyone followed me so far? The point is

that the computer AI realized that, during

the play of the turn, it was attacked from

the side, and issued the order to back

off to a safe play (out of my LOS). This

has to be a inter-turn decision as the AI

has no way of knowing the presence of my

Tiger prior to the start of the turn, when

it makes the movement plot.

Dont tell me that AI is smart enough to

enter a move order immediately followed

by a reverse order just to scout

the area. I have played this situation many

times and I can see AI doing this only

at the intersection where it got ambushed.

On the other hand, if the Sherman were in

my side, and I ordered it to enter an

ambushed area, the best it would ever do is

to turn it turret and hope to have a chance

to fire back, but never back off.

tank

[Guest Mirage2k]

Actually, that's normal, and your guys can do it to.

If I understand the game correctly, each unit is controlled by a "TacAI" that can react dynamically to certain situations that arise during the action phase. Backing up and popping smoke is a common reaction to unexpected/superior fire.

-Andrew

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Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

[Guest Germanboy]

I think this is a misunderstanding. There are three levels of AI in the game, and the action you describe was undertaken by the TacAI, which carries out orders during the turn. It would do the same for your troops.

And damn, Andrew beat me to it. Do a search on 'AI levels' or something, or hope for Jason and the Searchonauts. It is not cheating.

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Andreas

[aka_tom_w]

Its called the miracle of Tac AI !

Tactical Atificial intellegence.

It works the SAME for both human players and computer opponents.

Many people here will tell you the AI is not really that hard to beat. OK it is sometimes hard to beat.

IT is after all, VERY VERY good AI that directs the computer opponent. There are (as I understand it) 3 levels of AI and the most relevant here is the Tac AI which every unit use to keep itself out of SERIOUS trouble by instantly issuing a reverse order when a serious threat like an anti tank team is spotted half way into an order to advance.

Works the same for ALL units on both sides.

I truly believe Steve and Charles when they state the AI DOES not cheat.

Sorry but it is just VERY high quality AI.

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Priest]

It happens all the time. The "flaw" that you are talking about is the very thing that makes this game great TAC AI. Look at it this way from the Shermans point of view.

"Well Commander I had Johnson drive the tank into the city and buttoned her up good watchin for snipers. I was cautious because I had heard there was Panzers around. Sure enough we go past a blasted blind turn and their sits one of those damned Tigers of theirs. Damn Kraut missed though with his surprise shot. Johnson hit the brakes and slammed her in reverse. Damn I think Lewis was hitting the smoke before I even ordered it. We are lucky to be alive."

See now try to find that in any other game. And Tac AI works for you as well.

[killmore]

Your own tank will escape too...

[Eridani]

Don't tell me you've never had ur men turn around and run away when faced with something big that could make them very unhappy... It happens to me ALL the time.

What you are seeing is simply the tacAI of the computer's troops kicking in, pissing in their pants, and going the other way. This is the same TacAI that will kick in with your men too. Trust me, I've seen it countless times, its definately not cheating.

do a search for tacAI for more information.

-EridanMan

[Guest Mirage2k]

My god...so many identical answers to a simple questions...hehe, well, no harm done.

-Andrew

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Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

[tank_41]

I know there is a TacAI in the system, but

how come my tank never back off from the

threat?

Does computer-controlled AI have a more

sophisticated TacAI than human player's?

Also, the situation I described does not

just show up in the street fighting. I have

seen enemy tanks, for countless times,

disappearing from my LOS and hiding

into houses, trees, hills, etc while

fired upon, but never seen my tanks

taking the similar action.

Somehow, I just feel the TacAI in my side

is so much dumber than computer's.

[tank_41]

KillMore and others:

I know my infantry troops often seek covers

under heavy fire (controlled obviously by

TacAI, which is great), but....

I seldomly see my tank doing this. 99%

of the time, my tank would turn over its

turret and react to the threat by firing

back (we assume the first shoot by enemy

missed), and it hardly ever thinks that

perhaps retreat is a better alternative.

[Joe Shaw]

Don't know what to tell you pal other than play the game some more. I've seen my guys back out of trouble and pop smoke many times. It doesn't always happen but it does happen. And I've seen the Tac AI sit a tank in a deadly situation just fat, dumb and happy waiting to get killed. I've seen infantry under mortar fire run to the middle of the road, hesitate, turn one way, turn the other and finally run back to the side of the road. It has, IIRC, a lot to do with the experience level of your crew. If they are top notch they'll react quicker and more appropriately. If they're rookies ... they're probably dead meat. Trust us on this one

Joe

[ianc]

"Dont tell me that AI is smart enough to

enter a move order immediately followed

by a reverse order just to scout

the area. "

Ok, I won't tell ya.

ianc

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tank_41:

KillMore and others:

I know my infantry troops often seek covers

under heavy fire (controlled obviously by

TacAI, which is great), but....

I seldomly see my tank doing this. 99%

of the time, my tank would turn over its

turret and react to the threat by firing

back (we assume the first shoot by enemy

missed), and it hardly ever thinks that

perhaps retreat is a better alternative.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot depends on the quality of your crew. What was this particular tank crew's quality?

[tank_41]

"A lot depends on the quality of your crew.

What was this particular tank crew's

quality?"

Like I said, it is not just one incidence.

But since I play German most of the time,

I assume they are mostly regular to

elite tank crews.

I haven't play Americans that much. Could

it be possible that the TacAI for German

panzers is less flexible than that

for Americans?

[aka_tom_w]

Hi Tank 41

yopu say your Tac AI is dumber

Well it will "react" in a dumber fashion if your men or crews have less experince.

There 5 or 6 levels of experinence and there is NO doubt that more experienced crews and men fight better faster and smarter.

If you are playing with anything less than "regular" men or crews at the very least the the AI that guides them may do dumb things for them and it may do it painfully slow.

Experience of the crew or men in question is a BIG factor.

-tom w

[Peterk]

> Like I said, it is not just one incidence.

> But since I play German most of the time,

Well, there you go....the Germans in their Tigers really don't have to be as afraid as the yanks do in their shermans. Maybe that's why you don't see your guys panic as much.

[tank_41]

ALERT! SPOIL INSIDE!

I dont buy this experience level much.

Here is a perfect example in VBT scenario

and I urge everyone here to try it:

In about the 2nd or 3rd turn into this

scenario, you should be able to move

Wittman, argulably one of the best tank

commanders in WWII, into the outskirt

of the town. Most likely, enemy tanks

have laid down the smoke and hide

outside of your LOS.

Do this experiement, order your Wittman

move directly through the smoke so that

it faces numbers of enemy tanks all of

the sudden, I am willing to bet my

money here (as I tried many time myself)

that Wittman would never back off into

the smoke to avoid exchanging fire with

3 to 5 tanks at the same time. The end result

is mostly likely a dead Tiger on the road

On the other hand, about into the 10th turn

into the scenario, German would get 3 Tigers

and a PzIVH, and Brits getting a bunch of

Shermans plus a few deadly FireFlies.

If you park you Tigers right under the

victory flag, they will go on and exchange

fires with Shermans and FireFlies. Note now

that computer-controlled FireFlies would lay

smoke, hide, and reappear back to shoot

at your Tigers.

At this very scenario, the tactical reaction

from one of the best tank commanders at the

time (Wittman) can not even match up

against a few panic brits 3rd rated crews.

[This message has been edited by tank_41 (edited 07-24-2000).]

[GI Tom]

Also, something else to keep in mind. The TacAI is coming into play AFTER you have given your tank the order. It's operating under YOUR orders until it hits a situation that is questionable, (the appearance of the Tiger) at which time it evaluates and determines if it can still follow that order.

Someone please correct if I'm wrong here. If you put a hunt order on the tank, it will do it's best to fulfill that order. You asked it to go to that spot hunting. Well, it did, and it found a Tiger. Now the question the TacAI has to answer is: "Hmm..we're a Sherman, they are a Tiger, my Co told me to go here on hunt or move or whatever.."

Even sometimes when trouble is brewing, sometimes it will carry out the order, sometimes it won't. Just like when your infantrymen run for cover. I'll bet dimes to Navy beans that there were times when you've wanted your infantrymen or someone else to keep advancing even though they (or rather the TacAI)decides not to.

Not arguing with you, just attempting to clarify. And please, if I'm way off base here, someone tell me so, but that is my understanding of the TacAI and how it works.

Page 56 and 57 in the manual clearly explains about the TacAI.

GI Tom

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To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

tank, this is pretty straightforward...

Most of the German armor you use is SUPERIOR to the average Sherman. You say you usually play as German, and that is the reason why you dont see your tanks reverse out of there as often.

It does happen, I assure you. I hae a Panzer IV, who has popped smoke and reversed against my orders 3 times already in one scenario. Its probably because I am asking him to move towards a Sherman Jumbo, which, to bring us full circle, is a superior tank.

Try playing as the allies for awhile against german armor, I am certain you will see plenty of this happen to your own men.

Another indicator to you should be that there are this many people playing, and posting messages and you are the first to "notice" this AI imbalance. It would have certainly come up before if it existed.

Hope that helps.... Later

[Formerly Babra]

So how come when my Tiger takes a gun hit (damaged) from a clearly ID'd Firefly at 500 yds, it just sits there and waits for the killing shot like a lamb to the slaughter? The neighbours must think I'm insane as I can't help yelling "Smoke! Back up dammit! Reverse! Reverse!"

Nope -- just sits there and gets splanged by the "inferior" Sherman and won't take an evasive maneuver to save its life, literally.

EDIT: Hmm... Maybe I should yell in German.

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It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE.

[This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 07-24-2000).]

[CommanderC]

I agree with tank_41 1000%. I think the computer tacAI is different from (and superior to) the human player tacAI. I've seen the computer tacAI execute complex reactionary maneuvers such as reverse, turn, pop smoke, advance, etc to evade and then attack enemy tanks that I've never seen it do as the human player. At least for armor. For infantry it seems more equivalent.

For example, how do you give orders for your tank to advance through smoke, fire a shot, then pop more smoke, reverse, maneuver behind a building then pop more smoke, advance through it, fire another shot, then reverse into the smoke again? I've seen the computer (tac?)AI do this over and over again, but I've never been able to get my tanks to do this, regardless of side and experience level.

[Eridani]

Simple

Pause for 40 seconds, move forward, and then next order give a reverse out.

OR hunt forward and reverse out..

I'm willing to bet a big part of the problem is your ordering your tanks to fast instead of move or hunt, therefore they aren't looking around themselves all that much and don't notice or react in time to enemy armor.

I do have to say, the AI does not cheat, and the computer tac ai is the same one that we get. BTS has made this clear, and it makes so sense for them to do otherwise.

I personally have no problems of this kind... my men react just as intellegently as the Computers, and I've been playing since the beta demo was released a little less than a year ago.

try slowing down and giving your men time to react, you might like your results better.

I assure you, you are the cause of the great majority of the error you blame on your men.

-EridanMan

[Formerly Babra]

I should note that when playing as the allies, which I mostly do, my tanks invariably pop smoke and flee at the first scent of cat. I only wish German armour (when I'm playing them) had the same self-preservation instincts. There's a hell of a lot of big game hunters out there.

I'm also annoyed that the Tac A/I, while executing a Hunt command, will not stop the vehicle to engage anything less than a tank or gun. It rolls blissfully on while trying to engage fast-moving halftracks &c., reducing its gun accuracy and usually time in view. On the other hand, when it spots something that can kill it, it stops to engage in a quick draw gunfight!

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It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE.

[Eric Alkema]

My favorite TacAI behavior is for outgunned infantry to hunker down (ignoring orders to run for their lives) until their morale hits "Broken" and THEN run, often in some direction other than friendly lines.

It may be realistic, especially for regular or green troops, yada yada yada, but still darned annoying.

[ianc]

I have to say that upon consideration I believe there's a certain grain of truth in this argument to me.

Granted I play as the Germans most times. But I have had plenty of Mk IV's, and they've seemed dumb.

The opfor AI just seems to be able to bring off a more complex and agile sequence of events than that which is controlling your units.

Now obviously this claim may be specious based on how the AI is programmed. Probably Only Charles knows that.

But it just seems to me that my guys don't get a fair shake sometimes. Perhaps this is balanced in the long run by the fact that I can instill greater tactical purpose in my units than the AI. Still, it seems that I die more often because of it...

ianc