What BigTimeSftwr should learn from Id Software and others

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It DOESN'T matter the type of game, mods will always make it better, always.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with this in regards to graphics mods, sounds, and the visual components. The cream does rise to the top. But do you really think mod makers as a virtual committee are better at the research that it takes to make a REALISTIC ww2 simulation?

I am not convinced. You need to make a way more compelling argument for this than you have now.

I haven't yet heard what is inherently wrong with CM the way it is now. To show that open code CM is preferable to the current business model, it would be 100% necessary to provide a convincing argument for why BTS is unable to guide Combat Mission towards its objective, which IS to make realistic historical ww2 wargames.

That is a hard sell, but I am sitting here ready and willing to be convinced, if you can make a case for it...

I have TONS of CM graphics and sound mods. I know for a fact that not all of them accurately depict reality, but I am OK with that. Know why? Because I know it doesnt effect how the game plays out. Its all for atmosphere and immersion. The calculations under the hood are the heart of CM, and to open this up to user meddling sounds crazy to me.

[The Commissar]

I've sat out on this slug fest for a while. Now that it chilled down a bit and all the fanatics more or less left, I think it's safe enough to throw in my thoughts without getting my head gnawed off.

CM should be modable, but to an extent. I do not think the ORIGINAL game mechanics should be user modable. That is, "kOoL dOod 666" should not be able to mod all the units in his game to have the fighting prowess of a KT and use this to dominate the ladders.

However, I DO think it makes sence that mods of graphics and new 3D models should be implemented. These could be downloaded, and would not affect the game otherwise.

I would also LIKE to see the ability to make "TC's" (Total Conversions). Unfortunately, people all seem to agree that this would supposedly "put BTS out of business since everything will be modded in 6 months". Not so. To make a quality mod people will pay attention to requires the same thing needed to make a quality game. A devoted team, time, resources. It needs to be realistic, or no one will play it.

So if I make a TC of CM portraying Hamster battles of the 20'th Century, no one will play it (except those psychotics in the Peng thread). If however I use the CM engine to make a Civil War game, and research it properly, people will recognize the good effort and will like it. The mods would be seperate from the game, and would not affect the original in any way.

Since BTS has solid plans about their future games, to prevent people getting ahead of them they COULD put a licence on all mods dealing with the Eastern, Early European, and African front. That is, modders can not do specific TC's or mods based on them without BTS' permission. Since BTS has no further plans, other types of wars and conflicts should not be off limit.

Just my thoughts.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Guest MantaRay]

While I really dont care one way or another about CM being mod friendly, the arguement that only mod friendly game will sell well is kind of misinformed.

Diablo 2 will the best selling game of all time, and it is only moddable in single player. Blizzard made a secure server to keep modders and hackers from ruining the game. 75% or more of the ppl who play D2 ONLY play on BN, or play the majority on it.

And CM sold rather well without it, so..........

Ray

[Banshee]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MantaRay:

While I really dont care one way or another about CM being mod friendly, the arguement that only mod friendly game will sell well is kind of misinformed.

Diablo 2 will the best selling game of all time, and it is only moddable in single player. Blizzard made a secure server to keep modders and hackers from ruining the game. 75% or more of the ppl who play D2 ONLY play on BN, or play the majority on it.

And CM sold rather well without it, so..........

Ray<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "modders" != hackers.. they built the it that way so people couldnt cheat. Modders werent the problem..

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[The Commissar]

Manta,

Diablo sold well because it is a simple minded game for very simple minded people. It requires constant clicking and that's just about it. You don't need to know about real world tactics or anything of the sort to be good at Diablo.

CM is a wargame. To learn and master it - hell, just to get involved in it really - you need to have an interest in the time period, history, and weapons. The typical teen looser turned hacker will not spend his time getting involved in CM. There isn't any fun in it for him. CM is slow paced and requires intelligence.

Besides, if hackers appeared our community is small enough (there are about 200 people on this board, im guessing?) that discovered hacker would be publically exposed and isolated, and with no one to play against, he would soon leave. For a cheating hacker who gets his fun out of pissing people off by hacking games, CM isn'r going to be worth it.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Freak]

Point(s) well taken Commissar.

And point(s) well taken Banshee.

I actually see what you are saying now about TC's. It may be a "neat" way to do it.

Also, I too joined in on the flames of this post. I could nt help myself any longer. I hope people do not use my slight rumble against me. Unless it is in a PBEM game

[Guest Big Time Software]

My 2 bits worth...

This has been discussed many times over. Hell, we were getting calls for Mods before the Beta Demo was even out. So here are somet thoughts:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Banshee wrote:

CM is not a game engine, it was never designed as a game engine. It would requires a complete rewrite (starting from scratch) to make it into one. There are no API's for it. The only outside 'data' it grabs are sound and textures (and very minor data from the preferences file). Just look at the size of exe, it is obvious the data is compiled in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well put. At the present time there is no way to "Mod" the game guts in any easy way. We would have to spend a LOT of time (many, many months) doing nothing but converting the game to an open architecture. But we have no intention of doing that. So for technical reasons alone, it isn't going to happen.

The argument that Mods *always* make a game better is just an opinion. I don't use Mods for CM, for example, so it in no way makes the game better for me. Mods can, to some extent, extend the life of a game. Quake mods did that. But as others pointed out, these easily modifiable games are very, very different from CM. One gets tired of playing and shooting the same stuff in the same maps time after time. So the Mods refresh and at times improve the game. But CM's appeal comes from a much deeper level. It comes from the interaction of gameplay elements, not just who can shoot faster or which Mod has cooler dismemberment abilities. Again, nothing wrong with FPS games or their Mods, but not all games are alike.

We have always said, and always will say, that we are the gate keepers for Combat Mission's game guts. This will not change. Our goal is to enhance and improve Combat Mission over time so that it is closer to the ideal of "realism".

Think of the discussions we have had here on this BBS. Think of how many misguided and misinformed discussions we have had because people have states "X happened and I think Y needs to be changed". So we all look at the statement and the annecdotal evidence, think about what it means, and discuss it. Very often (far too often) we figure out that someone has missed some critical piece of information that, usually unknowingly to the original poster, uncovers flaws in the original arguments. Perhaps there is still a point there that we need to address or at least look into further, but more informed discussion is needed. This is a time consuming, and sometimes frustrating experience, but it is one that we are willing to do because we feel that in the end we can get informed discussions to help improve the game.

Now... think about how this discussion would be affected by 9 different MG42 firepower modification mods. Even if that is ALL each modified, it could very well totally f-up any and all hope of improving the "blessed" data. After seeing how attentive people are, in general, to noting significant details about their "problem" (this includes tech support issues, not just CM ones) I know for SURE that if we had a discussion about the strength of infantry in close assaults people would forget they had, or at least forget to mention, that they were using x or y Mod. And then... chaos.

The above is just what I am thinking of right now. There are other reasons to NOT have game guts mods. And as for the arguments for them... we don't really agree with:

1. You will sell more - no, I totally disagree with this. Mods would only increase the sales of a BAD game if those Mods were good enough. I know people that bought CCIV, for example, on the premise that there would be a "Real" mod. They actually said "I know CCIV will be crap right out of the box, but it will be fixed by the Mods". This does not apply to CM since we have taken care to "fix" things BEFORE the game is released.

2. There would be no negative impact - wrong. I saw it clear as day myself with the various CC3 Mods. You'll never convince me that Mods add nothing but icing on the cake.

3. We need Mods because we are incapable of improving the game ourselves - This goes back to one of the original presumptions that CM2 is just going to be CM1 with Soviet tanks. I can assure you that CM2 will be VERY different. In fact, some of the changes we are proposing take CM in a totally different direction (all positive, I assure you ). Bottom line here is we are NOT sitting on our butts waiting to take in more money for nothing. We will EARN the $45 spent you spend on CM2.

4. Someone else will beat us to the "open engine" thing - nope, it will not happen. And even IF someone else comes out with a generic 3D wargame engine, every game made from it using Mods will feel the same as the next one. See... simulations are not just cool weapons slapped on some tank tracks. There are a lot of things that have to be custom coded up to recreate the atmosphere and specific requirements of each war or theater of a war. So I say, be carefull for what you ask for because someday you might get it (even if I doubt you will .

OK, enough ranting. Obviously people can tell that we have deep seated beliefs against opening up the game engine to Mods. These beliefs have not changed in 3 years so I wouldn't hold your breath for a change in the near future.

Steve

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

I can assure you that CM2 will be VERY different. In fact, some of the changes we are proposing take CM in a totally different direction (all positive, I assure you ).

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Argh! Spill it, or MadMatt's gonna wake up with a decapitated Sherman turret in his bed

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[PeterNZer]

Sheesh, madmatt gets all the breaks.

Sounds interesting Steve, please, either spill or don't torment us with these extra ideas!

Have you considered cut-and-pasting that response? The topic will almost certainly be raised again and discussed to death.

PeterNZ

[Guest MantaRay]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

Manta,

Diablo sold well because it is a simple minded game for very simple minded people. It requires constant clicking and that's just about it. You don't need to know about real world tactics or anything of the sort to be good at Diablo.

CM is a wargame. To learn and master it - hell, just to get involved in it really - you need to have an interest in the time period, history, and weapons. The typical teen looser turned hacker will not spend his time getting involved in CM. There isn't any fun in it for him. CM is slow paced and requires intelligence.

Besides, if hackers appeared our community is small enough (there are about 200 people on this board, im guessing?) that discovered hacker would be publically exposed and isolated, and with no one to play against, he would soon leave. For a cheating hacker who gets his fun out of pissing people off by hacking games, CM isn'r going to be worth it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, well since I have Diablo 2 and like it a lot, I must be simple minded then. My wife also likes D2, but is simple minded too seeing as she is a professor at UCLA with a PHD in Mathamatics. She even bought CM for me as a gift and played with me a few times. I guess she isnt all that stupid after all.

What makes you think all hackers are first off all teens, and second of all losers?

Games are made to be fun, even the click fest with no skills and or tactics as you put it. I imagine real intelectuals may even think wargamers are all stupid and have nothing better to do then live out some pipe dream fantasies that in reality do the world no service.

Do I fit in this category? You bet your ass I do. WWII is the one era that can hold my attention long enough for me to actually sink my teeth into it. Sadly I do not know anywhere near what some do on this board, and that is one of the main draws for me personally to come to this board in the first place.

But this is all a moot point as BTS has stated that this game will not be mod friendly.

Ray

[paullus]

To say that CM is not MOD-friendly is completely off the mark. If you hadn't noticed, there are at least a hundred mods out there, ranging from graphics, sounds, and interfaces.

I know that you meant changes in the actual profile of the game, but I'm happy enough to see that the great designers of this game have allowed the greater game community put its own stamp on CM.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

OK, enough ranting. Obviously people can tell that we have deep seated beliefs against opening up the game engine to Mods. These beliefs have not changed in 3 years so I wouldn't hold your breath for a change in the near future.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch. With that "near future" close-off, the modifiable-game-engine community will probably take that to mean you could change your mind in a couple of weeks.

Like Chup, though, a statement that "CM2 will be much different than CM1" only feeds the thought in me as to how much of the new CM2 mechanics (as would be applicable) MIGHT backdate into CM1 someday in the future.

[Banshee]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

My 2 bits worth...

Well put. At the present time there is no way to "Mod" the game guts in any easy way. We would have to spend a LOT of time (many, many months) doing nothing but converting the game to an open architecture. But we have no intention of doing that. So for technical reasons alone, it isn't going to happen.

...

OK, enough ranting. Obviously people can tell that we have deep seated beliefs against opening up the game engine to Mods. These beliefs have not changed in 3 years so I wouldn't hold your breath for a change in the near future.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said before it's a moot point since CM will not be modable (referring to the "technical reasons" quote).

As to the second quote I am a little perplexed. I have yet to see a game that had developer mod support AND have those user mods be anything but a good thing for the game. You cite CC3, IIRC CC3 was much like CM (ACK! stay with me) in that very little was modifiable and the few mods that were out there were hacks and an attempt at new maps.

But anyways I wont debate a moot point as I think it would seem that I do not like the game. I love the game, best in class. Cant wait to take out my CC and buy CMxx for years to come.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Sparky9292]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Orginal Quote by BTS

Now... think about how this discussion would be affected by 9 different MG42 firepower

modification mods. Even if that is ALL each modified, it could very well totally f-up any and all hope

of improving the "blessed" data. After seeing how attentive people are, in general, to noting

significant details about their "problem" (this includes tech support issues, not just CM ones) I

know for SURE that if we had a discussion about the strength of infantry in close assaults people

would forget they had, or at least forget to mention, that they were using x or y Mod. And then...

chaos.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

Again, what do softare developers know compared to 5000 ultra anal history majors, war veterans, who play this game?

Sure, at first there would be like 9 mods that screw up the machine gun. And sure, there are probably 30 terrible mods for the game Half Life. BUT NO ONE PLAYS THE CRAPPY MODS!!

It's a fact that the most accurate mod would be heralded as the best mod to download and add.

If you were REALLY serious about making the game more accurate, you would allow pref files to change the stats of the weapons, allow the ability to add new vehicles.

This is a SMART way to make MORE money.

Half-life is a game engine that's 2.5 years old. Yet it is selling MORE than Unreal Tournament and Quake III because of mods like Counter strike.

[chrisl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky9292:

Again, what do softare developers know compared to 5000 ultra anal history majors, war veterans, who play this game?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How to select a small group of those grogs as beta testers, have them go over it thoroughly, and then integrate all the information received from a variety of sources into an internally consistent, historically accurate, and playable game?

BTS has a pretty solid history of taking well researched comments/suggestions/criticism and integrating it into the game. If you go back and look through the posts (and up until the gold recently I had read a substantial number of them since January 00 (and many earlier as well)), whenever someone proposes a change to improve historical accuracy and backs it up with evidence it finds its way into the game. There are exceptions for things that would crush currently available machines, but for the most part BTS is very receptive to well researched criticism. And for such a small company, it's pretty impressive that they manage to go through the criticism and get some work done too.

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Slayer of the Original Cesspool Thread.

[simsjl]

Yikes... Post something, check back in a couple days and 114 replies.... In any case..

While it looks rather clear BTS would "open" up the game, a couple points...

1. Cheating: If people want to cheat, they will, Mods or no Mods. All it takes is a Hex Editor, SoftICE and knowledge of ASM/Windows System Calls and you can hack/cheat any program. If sombody wants a MG42 to hit like a King Tiger or disable a "CD check" at startup, they can. This is hacking.

2. Hacker != Modder. Modding is "in the open". Someone already said this. I would love a Pacific Theater MOD/TC (which doesn't even seem to be on BTS's roadmap). I'm really interested in a TC ability.

3. BTS is small. John Carmack writes most of the code for Quake himself (in fact Quake III was mainly written by just two people). An open piece of software just raises the bar on the programmer's abilities.

4. BTS are the only ones that can create historically accurate games. One thing I've gotten from this board is nobody seems to agree on what's exactly accruate (see "88 lacks punch" thread). Grogs themselves can't agree. Historically accurate to many posters seems to be "German tanks should be invulnerable and Americans should have there Tanks modelled with tissue-paper armour". There's the chance that someone would creat a MOD that the majority of the community considered more accurate then the original (especially if they could "MOD" a decent AI but that's maybye getting my hopes up to much).

5. Moddable games hurt sales. John Carmack drives two bright Red Ferraris! Bad games hurt sales and limited reply value hurts sales. Qauke III isn't a great single player game, I agree, but it is a great multiplayer game. CM is the same, the single player game tires quickly, the AI is just so stupid. I can't wait for TCP/IP but even then you are constantly refighting the same theater between releases.

I guess I see so much potential for other games with the interface (especially if TCP/IP works well) that the replay would be infinite if it was open.

In any case, I admit defeat and will just have to wait for the theaters I want, and pass on the theaters I don't.

Jonathan

P.S. Don't get me wrong, CM is a great game. Just IMHO, it could be much, much greater if it was open.....

[simsjl]

Opps, meant BTS WON'T open the game.....

[brucer]

A long time ago now, I was helping beta test CC3, and a couple of us who argued a lot on a certain discussion board about the series' historicity pointed out a whole lot of obvious, no-debate problems (typos, really) in the data files, and suggested the makers change them before going gold. We were told to shut up, and forget about it, because the beta was only to test the game for playability... That, in a nutshell, was the difference between that game and this.

I guess I played a small role in getting the whole CC mod scene going. But you have to understand that was out of frustration, more than anything else... an eminently fun and challenging game that yet was wildly flawed, and a game company that refused to support fan modding in any way, or even consider issuing patches in response to our (often very sensible) suggestions. I tell you, the amount of reverse engineering and data base checking we had to do...

BTS eliminated all that when it put out the game the way it did... and then they did the noble thing by setting up this board, by listening to concerns, and by patching the game when fans pointed out real legitimate problems about which a consensus can be clearly reached.

The historically-minded gamer in CC2 or 3 had one choice: to learn hex editing and everything else that was involved and fix the mess themselves. The same gamer in CM also has one choice: to listen into this board, to try and win their points in often highly educational debate, and get down in the books so they don't lose so often, knowing if they ever make an unarguable point, BTS is quite likely to change the whole game accordingly. Me, I'd rather spend time in a library than in a hex editor. (I only spent so much time modding to save other people time.) That's why a lot of people like me play CM now.

The day BTS stops listening to fans, via this board or some other means, is the day I throw the game out, though. I can buy lots of games that are fun, or that I can mod up to make them fun; I can buy very few where I feel I'm part of a great big resource the development team might need to draw on some day.

But it's more than that. Because this is about a war that really happened, that real people lived through. We're not talking aliens and space marines here. BTS clearly sees this game as a monument of sorts to those people. They want that monument to be as truthful and honest as a computer game can get. (If that determination interferes a little with some people's unfettered practice of their own creativity, tough.) I can dig that, also: their motivation for making their game the way it is is the same as ours was.

Even if I could mod up this game, I'd like to think I'd just try to win my points here in debate, instead; we all win that way. But I still don't really mind that they removed any temptation...

BruceR

[This message has been edited by brucer (edited 10-22-2000).]

[Rooster]

BruceR:

The ReadMe file of your RealPara mod is, in itself, a great work, not to mention the actual Mod. You make some very compelling points above, too. I see it differently in two ways, though:

A game that allows mods allows fans to create scenarios that would otherwise never merit publishing, let alone the man-hours of game development. Take, for example, the Winter War and Rumanian Mods for CC. These mods re-create, in game-fashion, lesser known engagements between lesser-known units that would otherwise never see the light of day. Don't the men who fought these battles deserve monument as well? Certainly it meets the desires of the people who have a keen interest in these engagements and who might have relatives that fought these battles.

Additionally, I think there is a community facet to mod making that enhances the buzz surrounding the game and extends the game's presence long after it should have quietly died in the bargain bin. This is a double edged sword, however, as mods and mod making may fixate certain gamers on the old version, preventing them from adopting the new release -- affecting in a *small* way the sales of the new game.

Kudos to BigTime Sofware for the way they went about using player feedback.

Dan

[Mord]

I was gonna jump into this discussion but then I figured by the time someone read all the way to my post their eyes would be bleeding....so if anybody makes it this far...the Visine is in the medicine cabinet, right behind the Preperation H.

Mord

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Spook wrote:

Like Chup, though, a statement that "CM2 will be much different than CM1" only feeds the thought in me as to how much of the new CM2 mechanics (as would be applicable) MIGHT backdate into CM1 someday in the future. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As we have said before, we are going to try our best to make CM2 backwards compatible with CM1. We have also said that we wouldn't hobble CM2 in order to do that. Too early to say how things are going to go

My comments about changing the nature of the game was not meant as a tease. Rather, it was put out there to underscore the fact that we are not going to regurgitate CM1 with different units. We still have no firm plans as to what we are going to change/enhance, we only know that to do the Eastern Front right we need to make some fundamental changes. For example, in CM1 we assumed a plentiful supply of radios for all nations. This is certainly NOT the case on the Eastern Front for much of the conflict. So we need to redo the C&C aspect in some way to account for this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sparky wrote:

Again, what do softare developers know compared to 5000 ultra anal history majors, war veterans, who play this game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you put 10 (just 10!!) of these guys in a room and asked them a very simple question you would get at least 15 different opinions As others have pointed out these folks HAVE made changes to CM, but only after they have been scrutinized and justified by the larger group on this Forum or in Beta testing. This makes CM better without any doubt.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sparky wrote:

Sure, at first there would be like 9 mods that screw up the machine gun. And sure, there are probably 30 terrible mods for the game Half Life. BUT NO ONE PLAYS THE CRAPPY MODS!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er... I don't know if you played CC3 at all, but the various different hacks (Mods without permission of the authors) caused a great deal of chaos. And as I stated above, this was largely due to the fact that different Mod authors disagreed with what the other guy did. So perhaps two Mod authors might change one thing in the same way, but change another thing in two different ways. Now... how does one choose which is "better"? Half Life and Quake do NOT have these problems. Totally different games, totally different outcomes from Mods.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sparky wrote:

If you were REALLY serious about making the game more accurate, you would allow pref files to change the stats of the weapons, allow the ability to add new vehicles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah... nope. If we were serious about introducing anarchy and ways to deeply divide the CM gaming community, this would be a perfect way to do it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sparky wrote:

This is a SMART way to make MORE money.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Dumb way to screw up a good thing. We've been in this business for 8 years now, so I don't think we need you to tell us how to make more money. In fact, if we listened to some of the suggestions people have made to us about how to improve our business model I am sure we would already be begging for change on the street corner. I will say this again... the Quake type Mod business model does NOT work for a game like Combat Mission. You can argue with us until you are blue in the face, but you won't be changing our minds. Afterall, we have a responsibility to ourselves, as well as gamers, to stay in business.

Steve

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

(Steve's response to me)

As we have said before, we are going to try our best to make CM2 backwards compatible with CM1. We have also said that we wouldn't hobble CM2 in order to do that. Too early to say how things are going to go

My comments about changing the nature of the game was not meant as a tease. Rather, it was put out there to underscore the fact that we are not going to regurgitate CM1 with different units. We still have no firm plans as to what we are going to change/enhance, we only know that to do the Eastern Front right we need to make some fundamental changes. For example, in CM1 we assumed a plentiful supply of radios for all nations. This is certainly NOT the case on the Eastern Front for much of the conflict. So we need to redo the C&C aspect in some way to account for this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God, how embarrassing; I had forgotten about that earlier comment of mine. Anyway, from reading other topic threads since my last post here, I have gotten the gist that "backdating" features into CM1 will indeed be planned for---as you've stated above again.

As for all your other counter-replys, those are also well stated.

Sparky, BTS has related several times earlier how "publishers" like TalonSoft had predicted last year that BTS's independent online venue would fail. Perhaps you would care to send TalonSoft's Jim Rose an e-mail and ask what his views are now on BTS & CM?

(Hey, I could try to do that myself, but I think that TalonSoft's management killfiled me long ago. )

[This message has been edited by Spook (edited 10-25-2000).]