An open letter to BTS...

[Guest Madmatt]

"A bouncer and Computer game develepor are two different things. "

Oh, and and you have done both then?

I have and they far more similar than you might imagine.

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

CMHQ-Annex

Host of the Combat Mission WebRing

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 08-31-2000).]

[PzKpfw 1]

BAH!! I think BTS support has been simply amazeing & I speak from past experience as I have worked on wargames in the past for SSI etc & I have done tech support albeit unnoficialy .

The ammount of time Charles & Steve have spent answering our incessant ramblings & their time spent to fix or add things their customers have sugested is unprecidented in any wargame company I worked for to date.

Now that said this is a public board their will be percieved misunderstandings because of useing a text based system which is a poor substitute for conveying things but its all we got .

& on a public board you can expect some flames to erupt as again everyone has an opinion and some ppl are going to disagree vehemently at times .

Regards, John Waters

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Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!

[Guest rune]

Well, as someone in the computer industry since 1977 [yeah, there WERE computer back then], I hate it when someone tells me they are entitled to something. Steve and Charles worked hard to release a product with no show stopping bugs, and have accepted and put in the game [via patches, which should be called enhancements] suggestions that users have made. Is the game perfect? NO! Show me one piece of software that is.

Should a user have to do a little work on their part before asking a question? YES. Call Microsoft after 30 days or before 30 days are up and ask about a network issue. YOU WILL BE BILLED for tech support. Common sense says to research a problem, then if you cannot find an answer take it up the ladder. People comming into the board saying the AI cheats, or it is broke BEFORE researching are obviously NOT doing their homework.

Last, Steve and Charles have been a lot more understanding and curteous that I would have been, had I been in their shoes.

One more...how many times are they supposed to answer the " Will we get playback for the whole game" messages? Answered countless times by them and others...I'd rather have them codeing then keep repeating themselves. Remember, this isn't some big company, or even a little one, it is Charles codeing, Steve and Dan making the models, and Matt doing sounds. Moon taking his time to do the manual RIGHT. That's all there are...other then the beta testers. Comes down to priorities...answering rude forum messages should NOT be one of them.

Rune

[David Aitken]

weasel wrote:

> 3: They are very poor at taking criticism of underlying design decisions.

Any criticism of the design concepts of Combat Mission needs to be made from a position of thorough understanding of the practicalities of computer programming, and of modelling in a game what you see in Combat Mission.

Most of the design criticism I see is a knee-jerk reaction to something which someone doesn't like about the game, not understanding the underlying principles.

Any sensible criticism of the game is either answered sensibly, by members of the CM community or by BTS, or it has already been answered and the critic is advised of this.

The trouble starts when people won't listen to reason and insist that something should be the way they want it.

David

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There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT

[Kingfish]

Just curious, can someone point me to the thread where Steve or Charles were impolite to someone? I've been here since Feb. of this year and I haven't seen one.

[Abbott]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

I agree with much of the original post, except the stuff about patches.

It seems like any potentially constructive criticism about CM is met with angry, mean-spirited attacks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is simply not true if the posting (criticism) is done in a polite or professional manner. The original post that started this discussion was rude, demanding and incomprehensible. Check the threads carefully Infohawk, you will see the same.

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Any sensible criticism of the game is either answered sensibly, by members of the CM community or by BTS, or it has already been answered and the critic is advised of this.

David

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, "sensible" is relevant. What is sensible to you might not be sensible to other and vice versa.

Again, even if somebody suggested if something wasn't sensible, they should be treated very nicely. That's what my point is, I don't think they always are.

What does BTS have to lose by being supernice to everyone (except people that are REALLY rude?)

IMO, even saying that "BTS sucks" wouldn't be REALLY rude.

IMO, REALLY rude things would be racist comments, etc...

And yes, what is not rude to some people can be rude to others...It is also relative.

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[jdmorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

IMO, even saying that "BTS sucks" wouldn't be REALLY rude.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact that you can say this demonstrates why we will never see eye to eye. It IS just plain rude and insulting. From your profile I figure you are "young" and immature. A bit of an attitude and no real sense of what "manners" are.[don't complain that I am being rude, IMHO "it's not being "REALLY" rude ] Hey, I'm no prude, nor old fogey, but sir, perhaps the standards you hold yourself are not that of an adult. After all you seem to think everything is relative

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"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

-- King Henry VI, Part II, Act 4, sc.2, l.86

[This message has been edited by jdmorse (edited 08-31-2000).]

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

"A bouncer and Computer game develepor are two different things. "

[Oh, and and you have done both then?No I haven't. (the "oh" seems to convey a

lot of attitude) ]

I have and they far more similar than you might imagine.

Madmatt

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's surprising (I'm not being sarcastic). I would've never thought those two were similar.

Can you explain how they are similar?

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[infohawk]

You turning this into a flaming match.

A common logical fallacy is to attack the person saying a message, and not to attack the message itself. You are attacking me and not my statements.

I don't even know how look at my profile. Can somebody tell me? It would really surprise me if I put something that made you

react that way.

"The fact that you can say this demonstrates why we will never see eye to eye. It IS just plain rude and insulting. From your profile I figure you are "young" and immature. A bit of an attitude and no real sense of what "manners" are.[don't complain that I am beig rude, IMHO "it's not being "really" rude] Hey, I'm no prude, nor old fogey, but sir, perhaps the standards you hold yourself are not that of an adult. After all you seem to think everything is relative"

There's a difference between attacking a person and attacking a game. Right now you're attacking me.

[David Aitken]

infohawk -

When I say 'sensible' I don't mean it as an alternative to 'fanciful'. I mean it as an alternative to stupid, or ignorant, or selfish.

Even when someone makes a suggestion which doesn't make sense, or which is clearly impracitcal, they are not immediately flamed. In my experience, they are politely advised of the problems with their suggestion.

The flames come (and a 'flame' on this message board rarely goes beyond the level of sarcasm) when someone presses on regardless with something which has already been explained to be impractical. Such people need to understand that Combat Mission is thorougly designed and thought out, and exceptionally detailed and accurate.

If you want a change in Combat Mission, you have a higher-than-average chance of seeing it implemented, but you have a lower-than-average chance of making a credible case for the change, because it needs to be very well researched, like the game already is.

Therefore, people making impolite criticism, or demanding a given feature just because they think it would be cool, or refusing to accept the explanations offered to them, will not get very far.

David

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There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT

[Capt. Lortie]

BTS support has been good, not perfect. Look at the long thread of Capt Stransky. Was he given a coherent answer? No. He was instead labeled to have "bitched" at BTS. Ok, he wansn't too polite. But he still didnt deserve that kind of mockery...

I think that CM is awesome. But it could be even better. Capt. Stransky's critics, although not constructive, should be taken into consideration.

As Broussard said, "why not aim to make it a Tripple A game when you can?

Thanks

[Phoenix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

I don't even know how look at my profile. Can somebody tell me? It would really surprise me if I put something that made you

react that way.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well this is in your profile listed as your web page.

http://grognards.are.dorks.com

Real mature stuff.

[Los]

Still waiting to see one exact instance where Charles or Steve (Who btw are the only employees of BTS!) have ever been rude to somebody. If any customer gets a rude response it's from their own peers, who are doing their damndest to police up idiocy within their own ranks.

Los

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

What does BTS have to lose by being supernice to everyone (except people that are REALLY rude?)

IMO, even saying that "BTS sucks" wouldn't be REALLY rude.

IMO, REALLY rude things would be racist comments, etc...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you have asked the question twice, let me endeavour to answer it. They risk that the standards of common courtesy and respect for others on this board go to dogs faster than you can start a quick battle if they let people rip loose and accommodate rudeness by being polite. Very soon this would not be a place where you could have any discussion at all. I have tutored 69 18-year old 1st years in our residences on campus for two years. If I had ever let one of them get away with rudeness, very soon I could have thrown in the towel, because they would have thought me a spineless git with no self-respect that need not be respected at all.

And BTW, in the Real World™, saying that "X sucks" is still considered an insult and is a bit of a conversation-stopper. You should try saying that to a policeman or a bank-clerk about their work next time you leave the house. Come back here and tell us about thre result. Your opinion of what is an insult or not is not worth the dirt under my nails. The opinion of the person you say it to is what matters.

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Andreas

[RudeLover]

Hate to wade into a flaming morass, but I have a (long) comment. In my previous position, I contributed to the development of a very complex product. The product involved several years research and development time, and the work of a dozen or so very bright people. We would have workshops to help people use the product. The audience of the workshops was typically made up of people who were considering adopting the product.

There were participants in the workshops who would sit down, listen to introductory remarks, glance over things, and immediately say, "this is all wrong, a pile of rubbish, I never would have done things this way, let me tell you how I do things…" There were other participants who would listen, try things out, then ask, "hmm, I like a lot of what I see here, but I'm wondering about this thingy here and what is the intent of it. It's not what I'd expect, is there a design reason behind this that I'm not immediately aware of?"

The people in the first category were often wrong, often didn't understand what they were talking about, and rarely had considered all the issues behind the development of this product. Not always, of course, but the vast majority of the time. After a dozen or so of these workshops, we could usually peg them within a few minutes. Their abrasive tone often meant that their concerns, even in the rare cases that they were valid, were rejected, at least in the short term.

The people in the second category were often right, recognized that the development of a complex product involves a large number of tradeoffs and choices, and usually identified the issues that the development team had struggled with. In some cases they had solutions that we hadn't considered that were ultimately incorporated into the final product. In others, there were design issues that required a compromise, and the development team had to admit that the solution was imperfect, but involved some choices. These people were also much more fun to talk to.

One can argue that people in both categories should be treated equally, but if you are talking about human beings, it's just not going to happen. With limited time and patience, who would you choose to deal with? If there were an AI running things, maybe both groups would be treated equally poorly. Would that be progress?

During a year or so of lurking on the board, I've seen only a handful of people in the first category. BTS themselves almost universally either don't respond or are pretty polite with them. I've seen both Steve and Charles step in and ask other board members to go easy on someone. Sometimes people go too far and are told so. In either case, as others have said, 'the forest answers back.'

On the other hand, I can't think of a business or agency that has cultivated and rewarded people in the second category to the extent that BTS has. That's why there are 100K messages here, and why so many of us keep coming back.

[NOTE: There is no specific comment on any single member here, just a general observation. Your mileage may vary.]

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

Just curious, can someone point me to the thread where Steve or Charles were impolite to someone? I've been here since Feb. of this year and I haven't seen one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I consider the following kindof rude. I am holding BTS, the business, to a different standard. If it were coming from a gamer, it would be different. When people say 'the customer is always right,' he may not be but I think the point is to treat the customer very respectfully.

Things like "End of Story," the caps, "Do a Search" and challenging people to find a game with this or that quality is just not very friendly.

"

What Elijah was asking for is TECHNICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO, and therefore it isn't going to happen. Even if the graphics power is there (it isn't) we would have to sacrifice programming a better game in favor of programming redundant graphics. And again, for the hard of reading, the hardware is NOT capable of doing the stuff asked of us. So it is not a matter of "not caring" or "brown nosing" but rather admitting that the world has something called reality and that it is God. We must obey it, no ifs ands of buts. So what is the point of discussing (or worse, demanding) something that CAN NOT BE DONE. Answer -> no point at all.

This is a dead horse. It has been discussed to death. Do a Search.

I challenge anybody to show me a 3D game, with 3D poligional figures (not SPRITES!) that has hundreds, if not thousands, of figured running around in an open landscape environment. You can't. And you know why not? Because it isn't possible.

End of story.

Steve

"

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Guest Madmatt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

Again, "sensible" is relevant. What is sensible to you might not be sensible to other and vice versa.

Again, even if somebody suggested if something wasn't sensible, they should be treated very nicely. That's what my point is, I don't think they always are.

What does BTS have to lose by being supernice to everyone (except people that are REALLY rude?)

Even saying that "BTS sucks" wouldn't be REALLY rude.

REALLY rude things would be racist comments, etc...

And yes, what is not rude to some people can be rude to others...It is also relative.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you just proved your own point. To YOU "BTS Sucks" isn't rude but to me saying so is. It is a matter of perspective and expectations.

And of the over 100,000 posts now in this forum how many times have you seen BTS treat someone in a manner which you believe is un-becoming? Once, Twice?

I really fail to see what you basic intent is here. Are you just hoping to engage in a friendly discourse about customer service or are you trying to affect some sort of change? Have you personally been slighted by the level of support given by BTS?

You mention how constructive criticism is squashed under foot but would you like me to show you more than a dozen threads in which not only was the criticism accepted but also enacted and implemented into the game?

You mentioned before that you saw no similarities to being a bouncer and being a developer. Well how about this: Both must be able to deal with the public in an environment which is often stressfull, underappreciated and even hostile. Both must be able to adapt to a changing situation while maintaining focus and control. And both must show great discipline in work ethic and proficiency.

One last thing that occured to me is your comparison to other software companies. As many have stated BTS is quite small and those other companies, 3DRealms, Valve etc.. have the capability of hiring dedicated customer support people. BTS does not. When was the last time John Carmack answered your question personally when Quake III crashed on you. Here, that is de rigueur.

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

CMHQ-Annex

Host of the Combat Mission WebRing

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 08-31-2000).]

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix:

Well this is in your profile listed as your web page.

http://grognards.are.dorks.com

Real mature stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I removed it, I totally forgot about that. That was hypocritical of me.

Still, the other people that attacked my character aren't doing anything to attact my points. Even if I am a moron, I could make valid points.

[Phoenix]

Good lord, how thin skinned are you?

Steve's comments are rude? Please.

And at the same time you would find nothing rude about saying "CM sucks".

Uh huh.

And as you state in your profile

"Grognards are dorks".

That's not rude either right? Even though there are a LOT of Grogs on this board and several of whom made this game happen.

You're perception of what is rude and what isn't is bizarre to say the least.

m sick of this whining by people about BTS being rude.

Shut the hell up and play the $!@@# game.

Yeah, that part WAS rude, and it was intended to be.

Jeezus.

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

I really fail to see what you basic intent is here. Are you just hoping to engage in a friendly discourse about customer service or are you trying to affect some sort of change? Have you personally been slighted by the level of support given by BTS?

Madmatt

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Madmatt,

I am not the original poster. Some of your points regarding my (infohawk) points are good, but you seem to be putting a lot of words in my mouth. I didn't do an open letter.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

Still, the other people that attacked my character aren't doing anything to attact my points. Even if I am a moron, I could make valid points.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you are not. And I suspect you are either not reading replies to your posts or you simply ignore those that do not fit with your your line by either:

a) agreeing with you, that BTS are in fact a bunch of rude loonies hell-bent on insulting their customers or

treat you in a way you think is okay for you to treat others in (BTS sucks, remember? And BTS are exactly two guys and not some anonymous mega-corp), which you then call an insult.

Well, I tried very hard to be reasonable and polite, you are not listening. See if you hear this:

Grow up and face reality!

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Andreas

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix:

Good lord, how thin skinned are you?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So my definition of rude may be wierd to you, but why can't BTS just appease thin-skinned people. It's so easy and it doesn't cost them anything (not even time).

If people think I'm whining or think this topic is stupid, don't reply! It's so easy to just ignore it.

I am splitting hairs here, I admit it, but it's fun and could be constructive. If you don't like it, don't respond and keep the thread going.

[Guest Madmatt]

Madmatt,

I am not the original poster. Some of your points regarding my (infohawk) points are good, but you seem to be putting a lot of words in my mouth. I didn't do an open letter.

************

Yeah I saw that and edited it but you caught the 'first draft'. Seems this is a very active and real time thread!

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

CMHQ-Annex

Host of the Combat Mission WebRing

[Tiger]

The fact of the matter is that you reap what you sew.

-johnS