An open letter to BTS...

[Capt. Lortie]

Hi,

After reading the long thread initiated by Capt Stransky regarding AI issues, I felt compelled to react to the responses that were given to him.

For starters, I think the kind of mocking responses given by the CM community is disappointing at best. Not only was he mocked at, but some people actually insulted him. In all the 60 posts, only about 4 or 5 denoted maturity; after denouncing Capt Stransky "unwelcomed tone", they pursued to help the fellow the best they could.

However, it is BTS answer that disappointed me the most. Stransky was first told that HE should look himself for the previous threads discussing this topic. He should have been at least pointed to the threads that discussed the issue. I know criticism is hard to digest, but you have to take it. The guy shelled 45 US on CM, it's his right to complain. However, on this board, anyone who argues agaisnt any issues in the game is almost imediately laughed at by the community. Granted, his tone was impolite. But he is still a customer and has every right entitled to it.

For the sake of comparison, let us take the case of Valve's (Half-Life) infamous 1.5 patch that was released a few months ago. The patch, although a wonderful improvment, had indeed created big connection issues. I remember noticing on Valve's message board virulent messages directed against the patch that some people called "incompetent work". Moreover, name calling and slander was even directed toward Valve. Nevertheless, Valve kept assisting the very same people that insulted them, giving them hints on how to connect to multiplayer games...although an extreme case, THAT is customer service.

Later, Capt Stransky was told that these issues were unlikely to be fixed, because of the "lack of time" with regards to the CM2 agenda. Now I think it is sad and it reflects the general trend observed in the last few years in the gaming industry.

I will explain my point. A few months ago, in the PC Gamer magazine, the issue of release-now-patch-later games was thoroughly discussed. To a certain extent, this is what is happening here. Steve assumed that we, as gamers, we rather have CM2 in a year than wait 2 years, but have CM fixed the way it should have been. Don't misunderstand my point; CM1 is an outstanding game in itself. That being said, it is not flawless. I am sure that BTS would be surprised at the number of gamers who would rather like to wait for the game to be completely patched.

Let us take the case of 3DRealms. I must admit, I admire these guys. Instead of rushing the game out-of-the-door in order to cash in, they keep the release date as "When its done" Now isn't that pissing me off! But God knows, at the end, I will be damn happy because the game won't need 10 major patches. Under frequent criticism from fans asking the game be delivered "right now", George Broussard, CEO of 3Drealms, has answered that excellent games take 3 years to do. He continued by saying it amazed him why developpers agreed to release a Tripple A product...

My point is the following: I am willing to wait 2 years for CM2, if BTS is to continue improving CM. Why? Because it won't need 10 patches and the issues that plagued CM will have most likely been solved in the second release.

Just my two cents on the matter,

(now watch the flow of insults...)

[fiftymicrolitres]

No insult here. You're accurate. But then, my opinion doesn't count because I don't have the game.

5m

[Hamstersss]

This is a joke and your demeanor demonstrates an extreme lack of understanding in what is going on in the computer game industry. Let's start with your view of Valve.

Valve is a company made up of millionaires from Microsoft. They set out trying to build a community and have shaped their efforts toward that. Unlike BTS, they have the support of two major publishing houses and the multi-million copy sales of Half-Life. Comparing BTS's business practices to Valve is like comparing the old (British owned) Jaguar to the modern-day Ford.

As far as the quality of CM, this is not some kind of half-assed buggy release. The comments on these boards are spurred by BTS's desire to improve the game, not fix it. The gold demo of CM is a better game than most AAA titles. Again, while Valve has a massive Mod community (Far different from what CM players consider mods) for CM, BTS is the mod community.

In short, CM could have been dropped three upgrades ago and no one here would have been angry. That BTS has been willing to improve the game further goes above and beyond the responsibility of a developer to their audience and, though we're immensely grateful, BTS should not be expected to do this. When you paid your $45, you were paying for CM version 1.X (Whatever was released when you bought it) and nothing more.

------------------

You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins.

-Hakko Ichiu

[GI Tom]

I will not insult you. A public forum is to express one's opinion. While I respect your opinion,(don't agree with it, but do respect it) I am confused. I didn't post on the other thread as I preferred to just read it.

However, I am curious as to why you would post this here?? Any reason you wouldn't send this to BTS directly?? The question is obviously a direct question to BTS, not to anyone else.

I fear that this thread will be locked up very shortly, for the same reason as the other one, which is that it has been discussed previously.

My opinion is that this type of letter would have been better sending directly to the source.

GI Tom

------------------

To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich.

[dalem]

I should know better than to do this, but....

Capt. Lortie, I believe the basic issue here is that BTS doesn't feel anything is broken with CM. I am not really qualified to speak for anyone else, but here I go again: CM does what Capt. Stransky doesn't like because that's what it's supposed to do. BTS knew this long before any of us did, explained it to us in many posts before, during, and after release, and so that's pretty much that.

Add to that the fact that Stransky's note was quite rude and fairly incomprehensible, and I would daresay that's why he elicited the responses he did.

-dale

[infohawk]

I agree with much of the original post, except the stuff about patches.

It seems like any potentially constructive criticism about CM is met with angry, mean-spirited attacks.

I also think the posts and bulletin board actions by BTS have been disappointing (see thread in General [Why are discussions closed?])

The example of half-life is good. Businesses should always be curteous (and kiss ass) to their customers, regardless (except in extreme cases) of how rude people are.

One thing I disagree with (if I'm understanding the above post correctly) is about patches. I think frequently coming out with patches is great, even if the orignial product was buggy. I would rather be playing CM v 1.0 than no CM at all. BTW, I didn't even notice the bugs.

AGAIN, CM is a great game, I don't think it's buggy.

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Melloj]

Exactly Mr. Meeks

The 'Patches' that BTS releases are not patches in the sense that most gamers have gotten used to.

They are user requests to add or change stuff in the game that the users feel would add more enjoyment. NO other company spends even a fraction of the time BTS does on constantly upgrading a product so that the users will have even more enjoyment from it the version 1.x would have provided.

Another game I play, Deus Ex, which is amazing in its own rite, is extremely buggy, has no multiplayer, and has had only a skimpy D3D Dll file release to try and address this issue. The player community is itself trying to build a mod to make that multiplayer option exist. Ion has stated any support for this endeaver is purely on the backburner, while it pursues other projects.

Sure BTS may be gruff responding to Cp.Stansky, but from the little of his post that I read before i stopped, he had every intention of starting an arguement. Many of his issues were raised before, I remember reading them, and I myself have only been here a couple of months.

In my opinion BTS rules.

[This message has been edited by Melloj (edited 08-31-2000).]

[David Aitken]

Capt. Lortie -

BTS have clearly explained that there would be no point in spending months trying to improve the AI. It is not something that needs fixed. It works. It could do with some improvement, but BTS have explained that this would take a long time for little gain.

infohawk -

Sensible and polite requests are treated as such. Repeated demands for features which have already been discussed into the ground, are unwelcome and you cannot expect them to be humoured.

BTS provide extremely good customer service. Anyone who doubts this should take a second look at what is being asked, because BTS never give a negative response to a sensible, informed, new request or suggestion.

David

------------------

There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT

[Guest Germanboy]

Okay Capt. Lortie, let's just examine the issues here.

1. CM needs patching.

I guess our opinions differ on that, however, the game is out for about two months now and has received five patches/improvements, call it what you will. Does that sound like it is not being supported? I don't think so.

2. CM was released before it was ready.

Not so, in fact all the patches/improvements have been on IMO minor issues, and the game runs for the most part beautifully and did so in the original version. It is not a buggy product like so many others, and if you believe it was rushed out of the door, I suggest you do a search with 'christmas release date' or go back to threads around February.

3. Stransky received his flak and mocking undeservedly.

He received it for incoherent ranting, and arrogant refusal to do a search before launching onto a diatribe that was very ill-informed, namely for arguing that the game was not good at doing something it was not designed to do. A very large-scale battle with AI attack. That is like buying a compact Nissan and complaining it does not give you the luxury of a Mercedes or the speed and handling of a Ferrari. In fact CMBO is (and BTS have repeatedly said so) designed to handle a reinforced batallion at most. Quick battles were originally restricted to 1,000 points for that reason, and the pressure from customers (!) got BTS to change that. CMBO shines at smaller battles than that, and the AI works very well then.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Let us take the case of 3DRealms. I must admit, I admire these guys. Instead of rushing the game out-of-the-door in order to cash in, they keep the release date as "When its done" Now isn't that pissing me off! But God knows, at the end, I will be damn happy because the game won't need 10 major patches. Under frequent criticism from fans asking the game be delivered "right now", George Broussard, CEO of 3Drealms, has answered that excellent games take 3 years to do. He continued by saying it amazed him why developpers agreed to release a Tripple A product...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Replace 3D Realms with BTS and George Broussard with Charles Moylan, and you have exactly the stance we received here in December.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However, on this board, anyone who argues agaisnt any issues in the game is almost imediately laughed at by the community. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry, but I completely disagree. That is one of the self-propagating myths here on the board. Look at the 'Hull-down' thread, or the 'Tiger-mantlet' thread, or the 'Long 88 lacking punch' thread (haven't followed that beyond 50 posts though) or various others. Some of these were started by newcomers, and they were very well received.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Granted, his tone was impolite. But he is still a customer and has every right entitled to it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And finally, simply being a customer does not give you the right to be rude. I was a taxi-driver once, when a customer was rude to me he found himself on the street faster than he could say 'customer rights', believe me. You don't have to take anything and everything just because people buy some service or product off you. You do not sell your dignity with your product. You are not really trying to tell us that Charles has to sit back and take every inappropriate rambling by someone who does not get what the product was designed to do, jump and try to accommodate such people? IMO he should be very proud on what he achieved. It is the best AI I have ever seen.

------------------

Andreas

[infohawk]

Elijah Meeks said

"Valve is a company made up of millionaires from Microsoft. They set out trying to build a community and have shaped their efforts toward that. Unlike BTS, they have the support of two major publishing houses and the multi-million copy sales of Half-Life. Comparing BTS's business practices to Valve is like comparing the old (British owned) Jaguar to the modern-day Ford."

What does that have to do with anything? They're both businesses. They both provide a service. Just because one is smaller doesn't mean anything with regards to customer service.

I really don't like the argument "you paid for version 1.0." Legally that might be true, but comon', every respectable company, like BTS, will put out patches. From a common sense standpoint and from the de facto state of the industry, the customer is paying for 1.0 through 1.n

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Capt. Toleran]

A lot of the gruff responses Capt. Stransky recieved were triggered by his completely incomprehensible structuring of his ideas. Though he didn't seem to place any importance in this, as someone with a BA in English, I can tell you that good writing is the foundation of good communication. His reluctance to at least apply some sort of structure to his ideas indicates either that he is lazy and not truly serious about getting his point across (and thinks very little of all of us), or is not entirely stable, as his run-on, stream-of-consciousness writing had a madman quality to it.

Either way, his behavior made it very hard for any of us to take anything he said seriously.

He came off to many of us as a troll, as he was mainly rehashing ideas that had already been brought up on previous threads. If he really was as meticulous in his research as he claimed to be, he would have already looked at those threads before posting his rambling, incoherent manifesto online.

[Hamstersss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

Elijah Meeks said

"Valve is a company made up of millionaires from Microsoft. They set out trying to build a community and have shaped their efforts toward that. Unlike BTS, they have the support of two major publishing houses and the multi-million copy sales of Half-Life. Comparing BTS's business practices to Valve is like comparing the old (British owned) Jaguar to the modern-day Ford."

What does that have to do with anything? They're both businesses. They both provide a service. Just because one is smaller doesn't mean anything with regards to customer service.

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll spell it out for you. You cannot get a game like CM from a company like Valve, just like BTS could never produce Half-Life. Hence my comparison of Jag and Ford, you would never get the E-Type from Ford and you would never get all the junk produced by Ford from Jag. These are the tradeoffs. If you don't like them, you go try to convince a bunch of millionaires to fund your project, all the while telling them that it is only directed at a very small demographic (Smart, serious wargamers). You'll find you'll have a better chance pitching a 3D FPS version of Survivor.

------------------

You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins.

-Hakko Ichiu

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

From a common sense standpoint and from the de facto state of the industry, the customer is paying for 1.0 through 1.n

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A standard established by companies that publish unfinished products which BTS does not. So why should they be held up to it?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Businesses should always be curteous (and kiss ass) to their customers, regardless (except in extreme cases) of how rude people are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is just tosh. If you have a good product, you should be proud of it. And if somebody is rude about it, show them the door. If you have some semblance of self-respect and a spinal cord, that is. Fortunately enough for us, BTS have lots of both, and good on them! Otherwise we would not have CMBO, but Starcraft: Beyond the Nazidome. Because that is what you get when you follow your customer demands and abandon your vision and self-respect.

------------------

Andreas

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Capt. Lortie -

infohawk -

Sensible and polite requests are treated as such. Repeated demands for features which have already been discussed into the ground, are unwelcome and you cannot expect them to be humoured.

BTS provide extremely good customer service. Anyone who doubts this should take a second look at what is being asked, because BTS never give a negative response to a sensible, informed, new request or suggestion.

David

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are implying (you might not have meant that) that requests that are not sensible or informed will not necessarily be met with good customer service.

Even if someone rants about the need for aliens being in CM2, they're demand should be met with a very nice message from BTS (e.g. While we appreciate your input, we don't think having aliens in CM2 is best for the game, thanks.)

You're definition of what is sensible might be different from other peoples, that is why all requests should be treated the same, even if they are silly. BTS doesn't always seem to understand this.

'BTS is a great company' is being abused as an argument. In itself, that doesn't mean anything in regards to most topics.

[Philistine]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

It seems like any potentially constructive criticism about CM is met with angry, mean-spirited attacks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't seen this. I've seen a fair amount of constructive that's been discussed fairly, given a hearing and in some cases been incorporated into the game.

The only time I've seen (large scale, rather than just one or two persons) make angry or mean-spirited attacks have been in the context of people posting non-constructive critisms or posting rudely in general (or posting controversial topics which are sure to get an emotional response).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I also think the posts and bulletin board actions by BTS have been disappointing (see thread in General [Why are discussions closed?])

The example of half-life is good. Businesses should always be curteous (and kiss ass) to their customers, regardless (except in extreme cases) of how rude people are.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've got to disagree with you here. BTS has really been pretty liberal in comparison to many forums I've seen.

I don't think a company needs to kiss ass or even be courteous to customers who are rude. The only reason for doing so is to try and maintain sales. Because of the size of BTS, and the fact that Steve and Charles run the company, they don't have to be courteous to those who are rude. Unlike customer service people, they get to make the decision of "If you're going to be a flaming A**hole, I don't need your business." Try being rude to the CEO or members of the the board of directors of any major corporation. Better yet, try it to the president of your bank. See how courteous they are in response.

That being said, I could probably count on the fingers of one hand the times of seen any real lack of courtesy on the part of BTS on the board. Any that I can think of seemed richly deserved.

While I haven't been on any of the forums discussed, I would find it hard to believe that any company has taken more player advice to heart and incoroprated it into the game at all/b] stages of the development process.

Ultimately, I think if you make a criticism or suggestion in a polite tone and explain it coherently, you'll get very good treatment. Both from the vast majority of the forum members as well as BTS.

--Philistine

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt. Lortie:

Hi,

My point is the following: I am willing to wait 2 years for CM2, if BTS is to continue improving CM. Why? Because it won't need 10 patches and the issues that plagued CM will have most likely been solved in the second release.

Just my two cents on the matter,

(now watch the flow of insults...)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice of you to try to end around the inevitable slap down your post is going to get by whining about the flow of "insults" right from the start.

Now, anyone who ahs been around knows that I am the last person to claim the CM is perfect and cannot be improved. Indeed, I have goten into some pretty extended arguments with some of those who do seem to think that.

However, your comments are unwarranted and unfair. CM has not been "plagued" by patches, it has been blessed by developers who want to improve and tweak the combat model. That one line almsot single handedly makes your entire post suspect. Almost every issue addressed in the 4 patches since the game was released have addressed results, not actual game play. As such, they do not even qualify as "patches", they are actually enhancements.

Jeff (Am I becoming a crusty gorognard?) Heidman

[jdmorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

I agree with much of the original post.

It seems like any potentially constructive criticism about CM is met with angry, mean-spirited attacks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not see any here. Some exasperation, but I hear people still trying to explain in a reasonable way. In a community of this size, some will be hotter headed than others.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also think the posts and bulletin board actions by BTS have been disappointing (see thread in General [Why are discussions closed?])<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't explain, but for what I see, closure happens ONLY when the thread is way off topic or degenerating or has "beat that dead horse" Again. Look at the Peng thread, It was invaded by a person who was trying to bait and get the thread locked up. Silliness and reason prevailed and it was not locked up. BTS doesn't lock it up arbitraily. Everytime has a good supportable reason consistent w/ their standards

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The example of half-life is good. Businesses should always be curteous (and kiss ass) to their customers, regardless (except in extreme cases) of how rude people are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot understand how you can say this. As we speak Charles and I have been corresponding over a problem I have in using indirect fire. It may turn out that I am simply being stupid, but the developer/publisher is talking to me direct. Several posts as well as several emails. He is taking time to help one(1)! customer figure out something that is confusing him. And I know my case is not an isolated one. How many times does Steve or Charles chime in on this forum w/in hours of a post. I do not see that happening with other games. The service and respect is phenonemal.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One thing I disagree with (if I'm understanding the above post correctly) is about patches. I think frequently coming out with patches is great, even if the orignial product was buggy. I would rather be playing CM v 1.0 than no CM at all. BTW, I didn't even notice the bugs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The so called "patches" are really a misnomer. They do not fix a mistake, rather enhancements is a better words. Others have made this observations before. Heck the beta demo was "stable" and as far as I remember, virtually bug free.

BTS didn't release the game until it was ready (and we were in a froth ; refreshing monkeys and all!!!) They solicited opinions of this forum to release w/out the TCP/IP, and bowed to the collective desire, they have included things (see dead bodies threads) that they didn't think was needed, but the community asked for. They have enhanced (smoke and explosions) not patched.

------------------

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

-- King Henry VI, Part II, Act 4, sc.2, l.86

[This message has been edited by jdmorse (edited 08-31-2000).]

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

I'll spell it out for you.

Wow, thanks Meeks!

These are the tradeoffs. If you don't like them, you go try to convince a bunch of millionaires to fund your project, all the while telling them that it is only directed at a very small demographic (Smart, serious wargamers). You'll find you'll have a better chance pitching a 3D FPS version of Survivor.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're suggesting there has to be tradoffs, but this doesn't have to be true. Jaguar could possibly offer better customer service than Ford. The only tradoff is money. Jaguar, just because it produces a smaller amount of high quality cars, could still many of the things Ford does.

Where did the thing about pitching a game to millionaires come in? I don't need your argument spelled out again. Basically, it doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. The question is not, "Is valve a different company than BTS?"

Instead, it is something more like, "Is BTS being curteous, fair, etc"... (I could be mistating the OPosters topic).

Again, I don't agree with the OP on the bugs, just the attitude of BTS.

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Guest rune]

You have no idea how the software industry works. Windows 98 is bug fixes for 95....did you get it for free? The software company I work for charges a fee for upgrades, which is the industry standard. You think because you spent 45.00 that you are entitled for unlimited upgrades? Not in this world. Take a look at the fix list in 1.05. gee, the manlet of the tiger changed when someone had better proof on the actual armor. This is a bug? No, it is an enhancement, as are most of the things in each patch.

Steve and Charles are two people, why should they spend countless hours per day answering the SAME QUESTIONS over and over because someone doesn't want to SEARCH. OK, I am a customer too, and I'd much rather have them working on adding tcp/ip then to answer the SAME THING AGAIN. Should we vote to see how many people feel the same way? Want to bet most people feel like me?

CM was released before it was ready? BULL. See above....these are enhancements with some bug fixes...NONE of which would be considered a show stopper.

Rune

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

Elijah Meeks said

"Valve is a company made up of millionaires from Microsoft. They set out trying to build a community and have shaped their efforts toward that. Unlike BTS, they have the support of two major publishing houses and the multi-million copy sales of Half-Life. Comparing BTS's business practices to Valve is like comparing the old (British owned) Jaguar to the modern-day Ford."

What does that have to do with anything? They're both businesses. They both provide a service. Just because one is smaller doesn't mean anything with regards to customer service.

I really don't like the argument "you paid for version 1.0." Legally that might be true, but comon', every respectable company, like BTS, will put out patches. From a common sense standpoint and from the de facto state of the industry, the customer is paying for 1.0 through 1.n

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune:

You have no idea how the software industry works. Windows 98 is bug fixes for 95....did you get it for free? The software company I work for charges a fee for upgrades, which is the industry standard.

Rune

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for telling me I don't know how the industry works, that may be true, but it doesn't have anything to do with my point about CM being more curteous or friendly.

BTW, I respect the argument that BTS doesn't have to be kiss-ass to preserve its dignity and because it produced a good game (I don't agree with it but it is reasonable).

[dumbo]

I find all the comparisons to twitch games like half life interesting. This is a wargame, please compare apples to apples.

AI for twitch games like Half Life is a completely different beast to AI for wargames. Please bear that in mind.

Just to state the way I see it. CM is DONE. Complete, finished.

Any further patches will be more enhancements to a great game. Personally I would sooner BTS was working on CM2, they dont have a big daddy publisher and need cash revenue. Any further enhancemnets to CM should be bundled into CM2 which we should pay for. I implore BTS not to get stuck into the trap of constantly upgrading CM for free. That way lies great Net relations but also bankrupcy.

Just my thoughts.

cheers

_dumbo

[weasel]

1: CM is a remarkably stable and well supported bit of software, especially given the size of the development team.

2: They (BTS and the local community) are very good at taking certain forms of "criticism", usually of the form "after six months of well-documented research, I have determined that the UberPanzerIIIAus4G could rotate its turret much faster than is currently modelled". Or even "the TacAI makes my bazooka team run in crazed circles in the following well-defined circumstances".

3: They are very poor at taking criticism of underlying design decisions. Pointing out (for instance) that tanks are in fact not points, and thus cannot move half-way into houses without demolishing them is a sure path to rapid flaming. Quite possibly from BTS itself, which does seem just a tad unprofessional to me.

4: It's still damn good value for the money. And much, much better supported than most. Just stay away from those third rail (3) issues, and you'll be fine.

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumbo:

Just to state the way I see it. CM is DONE. Complete, finished.

_dumbo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, I don't even care about the tcp/ip.

On the otherhand, I don't agree that CM should only be compared to wargames (if we're talking about customer service- if not than it does need to be). BTS is a computer game maker and a business, and can be reasonably compared to other businesses when it comes to customer service (I mainly mean how they respond to criticism, not their patches and delivery).

I agree with point three of Weasel's post: it's what I'm talking about when I refer to customer service. I should have been clearer.

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Guest Madmatt]

This statement caught my eye:

*****************************

Businesses should always be curteous (and kiss ass) to their customers, regardless (except in extreme cases) of how rude people are.

*****************************

As a former bouncer would you like more than 500 personal examples of when doing this would have put me in the hospital or potentialy in a casket?

No business has any obligation to endure to the vitriol colloquialisms of a ranting idiot.

Common civility is expected and deserved to and from those in any type of service industry and when a person crosses that line of decency they forsake any chance that their initial intent or purpose will be considered.

Think of it in this rather extreme example.

You really think anyone would have cared about E=MC squared if Einstein had been holding hostages?

Madmatt

------------------

If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

CMHQ-Annex

Host of the Combat Mission WebRing

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

This statement caught my eye:

Think of it in this rather extreme example.

You really think anyone would have cared about E=MC squared if Einstein had been holding hostages?

I specifically made an exception for extreme cases

Common civility is expected and deserved to and from those in any type of service industry and when a person crosses that line of decency they forsake any chance that their initial intent or purpose will be considered.

Madmatt

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think most people have displayed comon civility. Some cases did not warrant the responses from BTS.

A bouncer and Computer game develepor are two different things. Bouncers are an exception in business in that they normally aren't all that polite or don't need to be(and for good reason probably).

People that sell things shouldn't compare themselves with bouncers. Bouncers try to keep people out of a business. BTS shouldn't be keeping anybody out of the symbolic club(I'm not sayint they ARE keeping people out)

BTW, I think BTS has nothing to lose by being polite as possible. What's the worst that could happen?

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).]