Improving my Military Knowledge

[Epée]

To all you grognards,

can someone clarify to me the basic organizational units of the military?

For example, by now I know that a squad has 8-12 men. And what about Companies, Battalions, Divisions, Brigands, Plattons, Armies, etc. ? How many men (or squads) to each of these? What are they composed of?

Epée

Brazil

[Formerly Babra]

Different armies differ slightly (and sometimes greatly), but the rule of threes is a good base. Three platoons to a company, three companies to a battalion, &c. As I say though, it depends entirely on what country you are looking at. There are some threads discussing this if you do a search.

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When I die I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car

[Juju]

Hi Epee!

These organizations differ from country to country I think, but here's a typical SS example at the time of the 1944 Normandy battles:

Divisionsstab (divisional staff):

Divisional Commander

General Staff officers

Cartography unit

Signals Element

Divisional escort unit

Military police element

Quartiermeister (divisional quartermaster):

Weapons platoon

Mechanics

Staff doctor

Staff dentist

Panzer Regiment ( tank regiment);

I Abteilung - 4 Companies (1-4) + workshop Company

II Abteilung - 5 Companies (5-9) + workshop company

Panzerjaeger Abteilung (TD detachment)

3 companies of self-propelled guns

Panzergrenadier Regiment (armoured infantry regiment):

I Battalion - 4 Companies (1-4)

II Battalion - 4 Companies (5-8)

III Battalion - 4 Companies (9-12)

Heavy guns Company (13)

Flak Company (14)

Recce Company (15)

Pioneer Company (16)

Panzergrenadier Regiment (as above)

(Waffen SS panzer divisions fielded 2 panzergrenadier regiments).

Panzer Aufklaerungs Abteilung (Armoured Recce detachment):

2 Companies of armoured cars

2 Recce companies

1 Heavy Company

Panzer Artillerie Regiment (armoured artillery regiment):

I Abteilung - 3 batteries

II Abteilung - 3 batteries

III Abteilung - 3 batteries

Werfer Abteilung (mortar detachment);

4 batteries

Flak Abteilung (AA detachment):

5 batteries

Panzer Pioniere abteilung (Armoured engineer detachment):

1 armoured comany

3 Pionier companies

1 bridging company

Panzer Nachrichten Abteilung (Armoured signals detachment):

1 telephone company

1 radio company

Divisions Nachschubtruppe (Divisional supply troops):

6 companies of lorries

1 supply company

Panzer Instandsetzungsabteilung (armoured maintenance detachment):

3 workshop companies

1 weapons company

1 spares company

Wirtschafts Battalion ("housekeeping" battalion):

Bakery comany

Butchery company

Cooks

Field post office

BTW, no two Waffen SS divisions were absolutely identical in their composition. The above, based one the 12th SS PZ Div. Hitlerjugend is fairly typical.

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Combat Axiom 46. Do unto others, before they do unto you.

[Epée]

I will command an infantry battalion in CMMC (I cannot tell which side)...what should I expect to get?

Epée

Brazil

[Mark IV]

3 robbers to a Brigand?

Sorry, couldn't resist. It gets even more fun when Brigades are compared to Regiments. When you lose track of all this, you form a Task Force or a Kampfgruppe, so you don't have to count so damn much.

3 squads and a little HQ to a platoon.

3 platoons of inf., plus a heavy weapons platoon and an HQ for the Company (unless it's a cavalry outfit, then its a "Troop").

3 companies plus "organic" (under their own control) big guns and stuff to a battalion.

Battalions answer to Brigades (or Regiments).

3 Brigades and a bunch of artillery and support people answer to Division.

Between Division and Army, there are Corps (they usually get Roman numerals).

[pcelt]

What should you expect to get Epee ?

--- Slaughtered--

[This message has been edited by pcelt (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Echo]

Try this...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/index.html

[Screamin Demon]

Epee Wrote:

can someone clarify to me the basic organizational units of the military?

There are 20 legions in the Millitary, which compirse of 5,000 infantrymen plus supporting cavalrymen each. Then the Legions are divided into groups of 80 men, called a Century, then the Century is divided

into 10 groups of 8 men who eat & sleep together, and also share tents, cooking equipment & rations.

Err, you did mean the Roman Millitary of c.50 AD didnt you?

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epée:

I will command an infantry battalion in CMMC (I cannot tell which side)...what should I expect to get?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, I'll take pity on you, Epee. [i fenced epee in & after college, actually.]

A generic infantry battalion will probably include 3 infantry companies and some kind of support company. Each infantry company probably has 3 platoons and a weapons platoon, and a platoon is three squads. So you'll have maybe 27 squads, 16 or so HQs, and some support weapons like MGs, light mortars and AT assets.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epée:

I will command an infantry battalion in CMMC (I cannot tell which side)...what should I expect to get?

Epée

Brazil<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reynolds in 'Steel Inferno' gives the breakdown structure down to platoon for the normal divisons (infantry and armored) of the US, UK and Germany (SS and Heer) in Normandy in the appendix. It is a good read to prepare for CMMC anyway, so you might want to pick that one up. Hmm, my copy seems to have gone AWOL, otherwise I would give you the ISBN.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Err, you did mean the Roman Millitary of c.50 AD didnt you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What! No triarii, hastatii, et principii? Peltasts? Balearic slingers? This modern army will never amount to anything, I tell ya.

[Screamin Demon]

Hey i got this info out of the same book that i read the US army was saved from teh beaches of Dunkirk, gimme a break.

Mr. Demon

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Screamin Demon:

Hey i got this info out of the same book that i read the US army was saved from teh beaches of Dunkirk, gimme a break.

Mr. Demon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL - let's face it, the legions would have made mince meat out of any WW II army, those were the men! Trajan rules!

Please note that all smilies had an important engagement in the Circus...

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

LOL - let's face it, the legions would have made mince meat out of any WW II army, those were the men! Trajan rules!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps, but could they have run with a fully supplied MG42 with Lafette Tripod Mount and Volksklobürste?

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

Perhaps, but could they have run with a fully supplied MG42 with Lafette Tripod Mount and Volksklobürste?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Early Republic formations surely could have (LC-035, Librellus Campi: Monas Parvas Tacticas) but Imperial Legions would have had to conscript Germaniae for this role. Imperial troops were decadent panty-waists whose service violated the constitution.

If it wasn't for Scipio you'd all be speaking Carthaginian right now.

Long live the Republic! Death to kings! Remember Regulus!

[Jeff Pattison]

If those groups of 80 men were centuries, then what was a cohort? I know nominally that a legion consisted of 10 cohorts.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Pattison:

If those groups of 80 men were centuries, then what was a cohort? I know nominally that a legion consisted of 10 cohorts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A cohort was around 500-600 men, IIRC. All these figures changed throughout Roman history, with the later legions being much smaller. The 20 legion figure is right for the time of Augustus and thereabouts, IIRC. A fascinating topic, if only because the Roman Empire hung around for about 500 years in the west, and a mere 1,500 in the east. Not a lot of systems can claim that. During the time of the crusades, the Byzantine (East Roman) army was probably the most professional fighting body in this hemisphere. Just got a bad press.

Mark IV has it, only true Germaniacs could run with the HMG 42 and the Volksklobürste. And only they and a couple of Saxon re-enactors whose role was pivotal in turfing out the Britons from England obviously knew the gun. It's in the genes, you know. Thought you should know that Ethan, tsk. Go and debate English military performance with OB&Max.

Please note that all smilies on this iMac were burnt at the stake.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[von Lucke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

...the Byzantine (East Roman) army was probably the most professional fighting body in this hemisphere. Just got a bad press.

Mark IV has it, only true Germaniacs could run with the HMG 42 and the Volksklobürste. And only they and a couple of Saxon re-enactors whose role was pivotal in turfing out the Britons from England obviously knew the gun. It's in the genes, you know. Thought you should know that Ethan, tsk. Go and debate English military performance with OB&Max.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too true, too true.

But I could have sworn Belisarius experimented with mounting an MG42 (plus splinter shield) on Cataphractoi cavalry --- or was that just an MG34 being huffed by a really husky Varangian Guardsman? The spotty tile work in these mosaics makes it difficult to tell, I'm afraid...

[This message has been edited by von Lucke (edited 06-07-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von Lucke:

Too true, too true.

But I could have sworn Belisarius experimented with mounting an MG42 (plus splinter shield) on Cataphractoi cavalry --- or was that just an MG34 being huffed by a really husky Varangian Guardsman? The spotty tile work in these mosaics makes it difficult to tell, I'm afraid...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could we all first agree that there was no problem in running with an Onager? Otherwise this will turn into a pointless discussion. And von Lucke, I have a first-hand account by a Chinese minister who got it from Marco Polo about 700 years after it happened that Belisarius actually stole this idea from Theoderich's Goths. So there's your proof. Belisarius was really the Monty of the Byzantine empire. Drinking water with vinegar all the time and leaving the real work to Narsus, than making off with the advanced military stuff of the Goths, claiming it to be his own. Sheesh, talk about cheeky.

Please note that all smilies on this iMac were evacuated by a fleet of Viking ships after a failed last stand at Mount Vesuvius. Ahhh, Felix Dahn...

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

And taking care first makes editing unnecessary

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 06-07-2000).]

[THumpre]

Germanboy, ROFL...

But I must ask, is that a Heavy Onager or a Light? Does it have a full combat load of rocks? What about Balistas?

-No smilies were harmed in the posting of this reply except for the few that I ate for breakfast.

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No matter where you go, there you are.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by THumpre:

Germanboy, ROFL...

But I must ask, is that a Heavy Onager or a Light? Does it have a full combat load of rocks? What about Balistas?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must resist taking more cheap shots...

Uh I just can't, so crucify me... THumpre, can you please stop confusing me by asking for facts and proof! My opinion is set in stone, so that's the last thing I need! And I have proof that early imperial Legions had no Balista squads, which conclusively shows that later Legions had none as well. So that question is completely irrelevant.

Please not that all smilies on this iMac have gone to meet their maker.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Mark IV]

Believe it or not, there are trebuchet reenactment societies (some interesting web sites, too).

Therefore they are the ONLY authorities in these matters, including onagers and ballistas. The historical record is NO substitute for actually lobbing a pumpkin or an engine block 100 meters or more.

PS: Narsus was a pusillanimous little dwarf.

[THumpre]

I will try to be good and not add fuel to the fire... really I will....honest....but it is soo tempting...if I had the game I wouldn't be as tempted....I think I'll take more medication.

Note: A whole lot of smilies were badly beaten in frustration by this poster.

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No matter where you go, there you are.

[TargetDrone]

now, you smiley mutilating individuals don't have a clue about roman warfare!

In fact, (read that in my mums cooking book as side notice) you could only apply for an onager crew (we are talking here about hte heavy ones) if you were a formidable runner... and an superb field engineer... cause it was not town or pushed forward (that would have been to slow) instead it was taken appart, the pieces split even around the crew, wich then sprinted to its new point of action, where it was resembled... the pitty was, that the guy who carried the assembly plan with all items numbered on it slowed down the whole process...

that was the reason why the roman empire finally fell...

they had all the parts in the forward position, but that damn map carrier was behind...

and dont try to proof me wrong, cause i have heard it by my grandfather whose grandfather told him that he heard from his grandfather......

well the originator of that story was actually my Great^10Grandfather, who was one such a map carrier and therefore had known this for sure...

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TargetDrone

who has a heart for smilies

and will defend their rights ....

even if the cost is bloody....

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

PS: Narsus was a pusillanimous little dwarf.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good to see everybody here is having fun, lots of it. Who needs the game?

Now while your remark about Narsus is quite correct, he was also the pusillanimous dwarf who turfed the Goths out of Italy, while Belisarius was busy dropping his shock troops from Pegasuses and Gryphons all over Egypt, a place utterly irrelevant in the larger scheme of things and then failed to move to their rescue. But Narsus was a little show-off too, he always ran around yelling expletives, having a slave carrying a mother-of-pearl plated crossbow in a holster.

And there is by now a thriving branch of archeology where they try to rebuild and recreate stuff, to see how it worked. The BBC and Channel 4 in the UK lap the stuff up.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)