Lanzfeld Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 I am reading the book "Seven Roads To Hell" and the author states that the 60 mm mortar team in his squad carried carbines. My question is why is'nt this modeled in the game? These teams would make good infantry after they depleted their mortar ammo. At least better than the pistol-packin' mammas they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 Lanzfeld: I have to agree here. Many vehicle crews also carried other weapons besides pistols such as a SMG. There was some problem with that don't remember what. In any case crews, whatever their weapons, should probably be pretty useless once dismounted for realism purposes, so this omission doesn't bother me too much. But it would be nice to bail out with a smg or carbine or 2 and use them to hold some building as a last ditch! Come to think of it I believe crews of 88's had a single light MG42 issued as well as rifles and smg's. Not that they would be able to fire them while serving the weapon, but after abandoning they could be quite useful (if rallied). Also IIRC you can voluntarity abandon a crew served weapon in the full version or am i imagining things? If that were possible you could spike and abandon the gun if you knew it's time was up, then use the crew as very light infantry. Ren ps bonus points for knowing where the term 'spike' in this usage originated! [This message has been edited by Renaud (edited 06-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phandaal Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 I saw a pic of a T-34 rolling through Berlin with a captured MP-40 straped to the turret. That would make a great bail out weapon for the tankers if they lost the tank. Out Phandaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcarey Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 Consider: A fairly large, quite fast moving piece of steel has just run smack into your tank, setting parts of it on fire and sending a couple of pieces of shrapnell flying around. Bear in mind that your tank is full of gasoline and high explosives, which may ignite at any time. Your options are: 1. Calmly unlatch and remove the SMG from it's storage. Then find the ammunition for it. Then get out of the tank and go shooting people. 2. Run like hell as fast as you can and get another tank. I would clearly choose 2... You cannot abandon crew served weapons - if they are abandoned it's because the crews are really not in a happy mood. Also - the reason the carbines etc.. aren't modeled for crew served weapons is that they are supposed to run their weapon, not run around as light infantry. You have light infantry men for that! - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 The main reason crews are NOT given SMGs and rifles is becuase in GAMES when this is done it ALWAYS leads to 'gamey' behavior. End games end up being fought by crews...the last charge is always done by crews...ect. In reality this did not happen. One of the best ways to prevent it from happening in a game is simply to not give the crews the weapons (that and make the expensive to lose). CM does both. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer! Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Renaud: Lanzfeld: ps bonus points for knowing where the term 'spike' in this usage originated! [This message has been edited by Renaud (edited 06-18-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ooh! Ooh! I know! Comes from a time when cannons were used and "spiking" the gun meant hammering a spike into the touch-hole so it could not be fired again. *beams proudly cos he knew sumthin* Ober ------------------ "Them Yankees couldn't hit the broa..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOne Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 If you lose a tank manned by an experienced crew during an Operation, you especially want them to beat fee out of there so you can use them again in another battle. Ghost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder1 Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 also remember one thing too. though I am not 100% certain...I bet that only pistols were the TO&E weapon for those crewmen. So my guess is that BTS modeled TO&E.. Yeah, I know that M60 tank crew (drivers) has "grease guns" but.... remember all this stuff has to be modeled and scripted....too many variations and Combat Mission have been coming out the NEXT millinium... ------------------ this is pathfinder's evil twin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted June 19, 2000 Author Share Posted June 19, 2000 Yeah.....I agree about the tank crews bailing out too fast and in a panic to grab the submachineguns but my question was about the carbines used by 60 mm mortar crews. But Scott Clintons explanation makes sense. I, myself, am way too guilty of using crews as lambs and charging the enemy with them as is (only pistols). Thanks for all the replys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aacooper Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 Those "grease guns" used by M60 tank crews are the same ones used by M4 tank crews. They recently changed, but I'm not sure to what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckinDixie Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Renaud: Lanzfeld: I have to agree here. Many vehicle crews also carried other weapons besides pistols such as a SMG. There was some problem with that don't remember what. In any case crews, whatever their weapons, should probably be pretty useless once dismounted for realism purposes, so this omission doesn't bother me too much. But it would be nice to bail out with a smg or carbine or 2 and use them to hold some building as a last ditch! Come to think of it I believe crews of 88's had a single light MG42 issued as well as rifles and smg's. Not that they would be able to fire them while serving the weapon, but after abandoning they could be quite useful (if rallied). Also IIRC you can voluntarity abandon a crew served weapon in the full version or am i imagining things? If that were possible you could spike and abandon the gun if you knew it's time was up, then use the crew as very light infantry. Ren ps bonus points for knowing where the term 'spike' in this usage originated! [This message has been edited by Renaud (edited 06-18-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I generaly use my crews from knocked out weapons to guard POWS. (In the good old days sppikes were driven into the fuse holes of cannons to disable them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 Scott wrote: In reality this did not happen. I think it would be more accurate to say: "In reality, this happened only rarely." Lots of freaky stuff happened in the war. One concrete example: in June 1944 a Finnish company manning the strongpoint "Leijona" ("Lion") deserted its position. The strongpoint was then held by an artillery forward observer team (5 men, IIRC) who kept the Soviets at bay with small arms fire until reinforcements arrived. (They may have manned the Maxims of the strongpoint, I'm not sure). The men of the deserted company were ex-convicts who were released from the jail on the condition that they volunteered to front-line duty. Later the company (and the whole batallion) was dispanded and the men were transferred to construction units. Generally, tank and gun crews were used as infantry only in most desperate times. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Later the company (and the whole batallion) was dispanded and the men were transferred to construction units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ...sure they were... At least that is what the government told their families. They were probably put in the poured concrete of some bridges after deserting their posts. On a serious note, Tommi, are you a history student, or teacher or professor of some sort? I enjoy the stories you tell about a part of the war students in the US hear little about. ------------------ CrapGame out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 tss said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think it would be more accurate to say: "In reality, this happened only rarely." Lots of freaky stuff happened in the war.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I see what you mean, and I agree. Crews sometimes did great things AFTER thier main weapon was destroyed. But I said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>End games end up being fought by crews...the last charge is always done by crews...ect. In reality this did not happen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And I stand by this. Last minute 'rushes' did not happen using scraped together crews from destroyed weapons...just because the game/war was almost over. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 ...sure they were... At least that is what the government told their families. They were probably put in the poured concrete of some bridges after deserting their posts. A couple of years ago a researcher claimed that there was a special Finnish military court that executed almost 1000 men during Summer '44 in complete secrecy. (I can't remember the official figure, but it is somewhere near 50). This claim caused a quite big controversy and the current consensus seems to be that it is false. There is only anecdotal evidence on the existence of the secret court. Namely, someone reported seeing his acquaintance being escorted by guards in Lappeenranta while he was officially MIA in Karelian Isthmus. The evidence was poor at start and after a couple of supposedly executed men turned out to be still alive the argument was more or less dismissed. BTW, Finns had also a good batallion that was made of ex-convicts, namely, Erillinen Pataljoona 21 (21st Independent batallion). The batallion performed very poorly in its first few battles with 1/3 of its strenght defecting to Soviets but those stayed fought well afterwards. For example, at Karhumäki the batallion destroyed two reinforced Soviet batallions causing 410 KIA to them. The batallion was commanded by Major Nikke Pärmi who was one of the most colorful officers in Finnish army. His name was originally Nikolai but he changed it to Nikke by forcing the priest of his home town to change the official records by threatening him with a gun. He had a very peculiar accent and purposedly misused a lot of foreign words. That was his way of distinguish himself of other officers. When he was first checking his batallion he asked every soldier why he had been convicted. When one answered that he had killed a man, the Major responded: "Well, well, id's good do have some professionals here." When the batallion crystallized in its first combat he called to the commander of the reserve company and said. "Well, well, id seems dhad some of my men may come dhrough your posidions soon. You could dry do sdop dhem." A couple of minutes later he called again: "Well, well, dhere may be some Russkies coming doo. You could dry do sdop them, also." On a serious note, Tommi, are you a history student, or teacher or professor of some sort? I enjoy the stories youtell about a part of the war students in the US hear little about. I'm a PhD student on theoretical computer science. After high school I had two choices: either I'd go study history or computer science. My admission test score for the history department was 1/2 point too low so I ended up in computer science department. I have read a lot of history books and I remember quite well the things I read. Yesterday I found out that the volume of my collection of history and cs books is now almost a cubic meter. I noticed it the hard way when I moved and had to carry the whole pile first one floor down and then two floors up. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 Last minute 'rushes' did not happen using scraped together crews from destroyed weapons...just because the game/war was almost over. Agreed. It would have been very convenient for real life company and batallion commanders to have access to a turn counter that would have told how many minutes there were still left in the combat. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 There was a URL to an interview with a WWII tank team posted here a few weeks ago (if I get motivated I'll search for it). They said they kept the escape hatch lubed up really well so all you had to do was look at it funny and it would flip open so they could get out. They also gave a couple accounts of bailing out-- the last thing on their minds was a grease gun. The important thing was getting out of the tank and hiding. They (or another crew) did engage in some heroics, but it was dashing through enemy fire with a litter to retrieve a wounded tanker, not rushing a foxhole with their automatic weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murx Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 I started a similar discussion a few days ago... I agreed to some parts (like tank crews bailing etc.) But still disagree with gun crews + mortars especially in defense scenarios. I strongly believe that German guncrews (especially when they had fought at the Russian front) were used to abandon the gun at some point willingly and fight as infantry. That would happen esp. when enemy armor was disabled and/or they were flanked or in enough grave (but not to grave to panic) situations like starting arty barrages to manage a controlled repositioning/ordered fallback. As Germany was in the defense I would assume this to be a normal procedure but not for less trained troops (Regular troops may by some chance do this, Veteran and above will do so, but Green & Conscripts wont most of the time). As new weapons were always (OK, nearly always) available to Allied units but not for German units the crews would eventually end up as infantry anyway. But I understand that this is hard to code and can live with the way it is at this point. murx [This message has been edited by Murx (edited 06-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 Murx: I see your point. But would this really be something that would happen DURING a single CM battle? I think this is something that would more likely happen between battles. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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