Toad Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 I'm in the midst of a game as I write this. Something just happened which I'm curious about. One of my Panzerschreck teams was able to score a front turret penetration against a Sherman at about 130 meters. But the Sherman did not die, and appears to be fine in every way. (It keeps shooting at me!) I'm just curious about what I just witnessed. How did the 'schreck shell penetrate the turret, but not damage the tank? Thanks! ------------------ -- Toad Ontario, Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcarey Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Really bad luck (for you). I've had a panther hit a sherman from 27 meters in the turret and do no damage! (The next shot was a gun hit, then finally a killshot. Sheesh) - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 the only predictable thing about war is....it is'nt!..hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 I think you were just unlucky. The shot did hurt the tank.( there is a hole in it now). It just didn't hit anything that mattered inside of the tank. Play long enough and your see side armor,front armor, upper hull penitrations with no damage also. Just the luck of the draw. Same as you can riddle a car with bullets, and they car still run and drive. Don't ask... I'm rambling Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Musashi Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Speaking of the unpredictability of war... I was playing CE just now and had several of my squads on the German side hill (playing as Germans). A Sherman parked itself on the hill, trying to get at my men, so I moved a schreck up at the same time I made an infantry charge to keep enemy squads off my schreck's back. It worked perfectly, the Sherman was dead to rights... almost. The schreck got to his position, right next to the unsuspecting Sherm, when he suddenly had a case of indecision... he began to think "Now should I destroy this tank looming in front of me, or the Platoon HQ 20 feet away who's being cut down by my fellow infantrymen? Let's see... this weapon I'm carrying is anti-armor, but I'd LOVE to see what it would do to that HQ squad over there... hmmmm..." Back and forth he went, targeting first the tank, then the HQ unit. Finally, the Sherman got wise to this idiot sitting next to him and backed out, far out of sight. When the turn ended and I finally got some control back, the Sherm was out of LOS. Now THAT little episode really steams me... I ended up quitting the program I was so peeved... A little hiccup, or even cowardice I can take, but when a schreck unit is sitting literally millimeters of screen distance away from an American tank, it should be an immediate decision to blow the tank. Especially when he has about 40 seconds to decide what he wants to do... he's not ducking for cover, he's not in any peril, and the tank apparently doesn't see him sitting there. He could have MANUALLY placed the shell into the tank's armor in the time he took to figure out what to do... I've got my fingers crossed that in the real game this kind of bonehead AI is solved. Anyways... I just had to vent a little Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Teg Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 The tank commander could be a causualty relatively degrading the tank's performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Miyamoto: Take those schweinehunde out back and have zem shot! PS: When are you going to add a quote from the great samurai himself to your signature? ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Toad: I'm in the midst of a game as I write this. Something just happened which I'm curious about. One of my Panzerschreck teams was able to score a front turret penetration against a Sherman at about 130 meters. But the Sherman did not die, and appears to be fine in every way. (It keeps shooting at me!) I'm just curious about what I just witnessed. How did the 'schreck shell penetrate the turret, but not damage the tank? Thanks! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have had Shermans survive up to three hits without the crews bailing in VoT. Gutsy crews. I also read an account of the fighting in southern Holland in 1945 where one Sherman survived a battle operational after being hit 24 times by Schrecks and Fausts. Just the luck of the draw. ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Miyamoto...i've had the same thing a number of times...especially in CE. If your schreck unit is'nt under any sort of pressure i.e - under fire from enemy units, then there really shouldn't be any reason for them not to make the right decision and attempt to take out the enemy tanks. These panzerschreck guys would certainly have been trained to operate this equipment and they would have known that their duty was to 'kill' tanks. [This message has been edited by Manx (edited 06-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbaro Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 If this behavour was an intentional bit of programing set to happen only occasionally or rarely representing a guy freezing up under the stress of the situation, OK. But, if this is unintentional in design, it needs to be fixed. As the forthcoming patch is supposed to make targeting "slightly" more sticky, maybe it already has been. I am not sure slightly is enough in a case like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Musashi Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Formerly Babra: Miyamoto: Take those schweinehunde out back and have zem shot! PS: When are you going to add a quote from the great samurai himself to your signature? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They certainly deserved it... I try to protect my guys as much as possible; I'm not one to make suicide charges or plans that recklessly endanger soldiers. But when that idiot cost me a tank kill because of his utter stupidity, I wished I could have turned my own squads' fire onto him. If anyone has ever deserved a dishonorable death in CM, it had to be that joker. As to the master fencer and his quotes, I've been too lazy to put together a cool sig... but now that you've mentioned it, I'll look through my literature and pick out a suitable Musashiden quote for a CM audience. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manx: Miyamoto...i've had the same thing a number of times...especially in CE. If your schreck unit is'nt under any sort of pressure i.e - under fire from enemy units, then there really shouldn't be any reason for them not to make the right decision and attempt to take out the enemy tanks. These panzerschreck guys would certainly have been trained to operate this equipment and they would have known that their duty was to 'kill' tanks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep, I heartily agree. To be honest, I've never had a real problem with my schrecks before. Use them correctly and they repay you with good results. But this was probably the closest I had ever gotten an anti-tank squad to an enemy tank... no enemies at all saw him, other than the HQ unit who was being butchered by my infantry. And my first thought was, oh, he must be a conscript, which would have been at least remotely acceptable. Nope, he was a regular... he should have known better. And notice again, no smilies... I'm trying to win the favor of Mr. Peng, my would-be secret benefactor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Germanboy: 24 hits?! Those are some LUCKY (or else protected by God himself ) sherman crew members! The chances of them not being killed on the spot and the tank being destroyed after that many panzerfaust and panzerschreck hits are amazingly small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Shermans at that point in the war were HEAVILY reinforced with sandbags, concrete, spare bogies, kitchen sinks and anything else that could disrupt a shaped charge blast. Their suspensions were overloaded and their cross-country performance was abysmal but the crews at least felt safer. I'd like to see what that Sherman that took twenty-four hits was carrying in the way of appliqué armour. ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Toad: One of my Panzerschreck teams was able to score a front turret penetration against a Sherman at about 130 meters. But the Sherman did not die, and appears to be fine in every way. (It keeps shooting at me!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I had a Schreck in VoT do a front turret penetration (much closer than 130 meters) one of three Shermans in a line entering Plomville (not THAT Plomville, MrPeng). The three M4s appeared to be bumping into each other, driving in circles, etc., but no serious damage was done. They opened up a can of whoopass on that poor schreck. Made for a great movie, though. My opponent, Berli, didn't see the same humor in it that I did. He especially didn't find it funny that the cantankerous guy with the tube popped up and toasted a Sherman on the next turn. ------------------ We are both men of action. Lies do not become us. — Westley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Musashi Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Ok, just for Babra, here's my brand spankin' new signature, featuring the words of the world greatest swordsman/scholar... ------------------ In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit. -- M.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 The rest of his book was pretty good, too. ------------------ We are both men of action. Lies do not become us. — Westley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 The rest of his book was pretty good, too. ------------------ We are both men of action. Lies do not become us. — Westley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP_Bomber Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Ive had a Sherman take 4 hits already and survive. 2 Hits from a StugIII and 3 hits from Panzerschrecks. The first Panzerscherck hit penetrated the turrent. the 2nd went through the front hull killing one crewman. 3rd was the coupdegrace. Just curious if anyone else had that kind of luck with a Sherman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Ah... Now that's the stuff. Thanks MM. I can sleep now. Before completing this post, a number of smilies committed ritual suicide in a show of support for Yukio Mishima. ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TP_Bomber: Ive had a Sherman take 4 hits already and survive. 2 Hits from a StugIII and 3 hits from Panzerschrecks. The first Panzerscherck hit penetrated the turrent. the 2nd went through the front hull killing one crewman. 3rd was the coupdegrace. Just curious if anyone else had that kind of luck with a Sherman?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Am I the only one having trouble doing the math on that one? ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Musashi Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Formerly Babra: Am I the only one having trouble doing the math on that one? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ha! Shows what you know... perhaps you've heard of the NEW MATH?!? Get your nose out of the history books and get with the program... everyone knows that 4 equals 5 equals 3. Man, the kind of intellects you come into contact with on these message boards... ------------------ In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit. -- M.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lee: Germanboy: 24 hits?! Those are some LUCKY (or else protected by God himself ) sherman crew members! The chances of them not being killed on the spot and the tank being destroyed after that many panzerfaust and panzerschreck hits are amazingly small.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Quite true - unfortunately there was no picture of it. It was a first-person account by a tanker or infantryman, delivered about 45-50 years after the event. I guess this one must have been extremely unlikely, otherwise the guy would not have bothered to relate it. Just checked the reference, finally found the book. It was only hit 12 times, and it must have been a Canadian Armoured Regiment Sherman working in support of the 2nd Essex during the battle for Zetten, a small village 6 miles NW of Nijmegen on the 20th/21th Jan.1945. This was a defensive action against a counterattack by German paratroopers of 7th Parachute Regiment, apparently trying to get through to Nijmegen bridge. The reference is from Delaforce's 'The Polar Bears', a history of the 49th UK Infantry Division. Sorry about the earlier mistake. ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Hmm, had to edit b/c I should always dig out the references instead of quoting from memory. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 06-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 The math is simple. Thr tank survived 4 hits, but not the fifth... Reread the Barbra post, the fifth shot was outside the scope of his first count... Ariel [This message has been edited by argie (edited 06-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by argie: The math is simple. Thr tank survived 4 hits, but not the fifth... Reread the Barbra post, the fifth shot was outside the scope of his first count... Ariel <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, right you are. ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 I think this all goes to show the complexity of BTS's armor penetration algorithms. Or it could be just "That **** happens." Hell, I had a Sherman survive a couple 88 FlaK hits in Reisberg in a Hotseat game many months ago. [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 06-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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