Frontlines in Campaigns

[Tris]

The Almighty Tris wrote

This is the way you conduct yourself in public, with a customer a no less, and then anyone wonders why the airheads follow suit, why anything which approaches criticism of the system is shouted down?

You must feel awful insecure to have to address me in such a demeaning manner.

[Mord]

Tris said:You mean to tell me you cannot conceive of anyone able to go through his life not worried about what other people think of him?

No, we can't conceive of someone being such an assh*** for no reason whatsoever other than because his ego is so inflated that he can't think straight because of his swollen cranium.

I know you don't care what I think of you nor the others. Your the crusader of all wargames, championing the cause wherever you find it being stomped upon and only your arrogant attitude is worthy of anyone's attention! Without your refreshing, authority defying views all of us weak and uninspired boot lickers would not know the glory of wargamedom as you would

have it be. You are the people's champion!

Thank god you have arrived!

No matter how you RATIONALIZE the methods in which you attempt to enlighten us all with your superior intellect, it still comes out the same. A turd is still a turd even if you tell me it's a rose. You dig?

Now go head and tell me to go to bed.

Mord.

[This message has been edited by Mord (edited 11-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mord (edited 11-26-2000).]

[Tris]

I really don't think BTS is amenable to sensible change on this topic. It seems to be the case that they've simply decided to ignore the issue altogether, judging from the poor response I've had to date from Steve.

Incorrect. As usual, you have drawn conclusions in your own head that run contray to the facts and decided to abuse us instead of offer reasoned and reasonable discussion. It does not surprise me.

As a rule we do not feel the overwhelming need to respond to rude, insulting, egotistical, hyporcritcal, demanding, whining, childish, horses' asses personalities.

More name calling.

Why can't you stick to the issue at hand?

Yet we still try and address the issues even when such a person posts here. I in fact gave you a straight answer to your previous question inspite of fitting this definition and then some.

What you gave me was more like a straight brush off, Steve. And you were none too polite to me then, at the very least you displayed clear signs of taking umbrage, and all that before any of this other unpleasantness arose.

Thank you.

First of all, we have made the most innovative wargame in at least the past decade.

It is totally beside the point, but I happen to agree with you on this.

We not only say this, but every single review that has come out has said it.

Again, beside the point. Get on with it.

We have also put in litterally hundreds of user suggestions when they are both positive and practical. We have had a discussion forum second to none in the gaming community, involving the free discussion of our work BEFORE we even released it to the public. And because of that Combat Mission gets even better.

We never ignore or abuse anybody that makes suggestions, but we do not like it when self centered know it alls...

More name calling. More bragging. When will it end?

Listen. You need to get into control. You also need to exercise a little discipline, learn to keep away from the keyboard when you are angry.

...think they know more about what we do than the people that actually do it.

I don't know anything about programming. I know quite a bit about wargames, though, and as much and perhaps even more about what works and what doesn't work in general. And the lines in your operations do not work.

I challenge you to find even ONE example of this.

One example of what? Please be more clear.

Even my answer to your initial question was neither abusive nor an act of blowing you off.

I beg to differ. This all began in the "Pillboxes" (now residing on p. 3) thread, where I noted in passing:

"And as long as I'm on it: one major change which needs to be made is the way the engine draws a straight line of demarcation across the entire map between battles of an operation. You need to sit down and devote the time necessary to allow these lines to be drawn preciesly in accord with whatever the opposing force dispositions are at the end of each battle phase--yes, this will result in crooked lines, not straight lines . . . as it's supposed to be, I might add.

Now. Should the AI and/or human player(s) wish to set up their force(s) farther back from this line, that's something else. But the imposition of your magical line just doesn't cut it.

Look. The way it is makes it impossible to conduct an intelligent operation even on a map which was designed (gamey as can be, this) with absolute attention paid to terrain integrity with reference to a north-south axis, and don't even get me going how phoney it soon becomes on a map which is designed with something approaching creativity (i.e., one which has angled roads and start lines in corners with an objective diametrically opposed and so on).

Got it?

Good boy. Now go to bed, get lots of sleep, then wake up early tomorrow morning and call Charles and get him cracking!

P.S. "

NOTE: Please understand that I tried to exit this post of mine as gracefully as possible, even to the inclusion of a smiley, along with a good-natured jibe re "bed" and "Charles."

To this you decided to reply:

"First of all, we don't "need" to do anything. Perhaps we "should" do something, but that is up for debate."

Can you see that? Right away you sound like someone who has his dander up. You want to argue semantics and not the issue at hand. You'd rather get personal than to keep it professional and objective. I suppose this goes back to your ill feelings toward me from the "Censorship" thread, but I don't know. No matter, it is prevalent here and how.

You go on:

We originally had a crooked line system. I can not even begin to tell you how hard we tried to make it work. It was so difficult and filled with variable special case problems (which might only come up once in a lifetime) that Charles was thinking of scrapping Operations from the game. ENTIRELY. I and a few others convinced him that it would be better to do what it took to make it work better and keep them in the game. The solution was to make the line straight.

Again, I must interject. The problem is any line at all. We do not require lines. We require no lines. Lines don't work. How simple does something have to be for you to see it?

However, I think you overestimate how "crooked" a frontline would be at this scale, after an hour or more of downtime inbetween battles. For the most part forces would consolodate their positions to form more sensible defensive/jump off lines. In other words, straightening them out. And nothing says you MUST have a straight line. You can stagger your forces if you like. You just can't have them staggered evenly with similar frontline on the other side.

So is the system 100% realistic as is? No. But from a realism/simulation/game standpoint it works, overall, far better than the previous system that allowed the frontline to be more generalized. And it also works far better than not having Operations at all :

In my mind that's a blowoff. You addressed not my concern but yours, which seems to be to deflect any and all criticism of CMBO reflexively. Just look at the comments you penned above, all this chest beating about glorious the reviews of your game are and such. Do you really need this kind of support, Steve? Why can't you just face criticism as it comes and take that on individual, case-by-case merit?

Anyway, your response above to me from "Pillboxes" addresses nothing but offers only a spirit of disinclination on the part of BTS to make a change I feel is necessary. And it wouldn't be a difficult thing to code since in this case we're just talking (correct me if I'm wrong) to pull the switch,, as it were, on the code extant which enables these lines of demarcation in between battles for operations.

They don't work, they cause lots of problems. it's totally unrealistic, and no matter how much you deny it the lines were a capitally bad idea from jump.

I plainly stated that we had innumerable problems with doing things with the frontline, so that is the way it is right now. I even said it isn't perfect, but of course the Almighty Tris got offended and decided to go on one of his Hollier Than Thou Rants™.

You ran around the issue, just as you want to run around it here. We don't need the lines, the lines are a bad c-o-n-c-e-p-t in and of themselves. The game should never have lines. What the game ought to have had for operations, in lieu of these silly lines, would have something more like objective flags and entry points for reinforcements, stuff like that. We could have used such. The lines are perfectly useless, the lines are perfectly dysfunctional.

Why Tris, tell me why, is it that you are even here?

Because I bought your game, enjoy to play it, want to get the best gaming experience I can from that activity. I suppose it was in my mind that I might be able to broach such a simple subject, that the lines in operations do not work, not a whit, and get something like a reasonable response. Instead I've received denial, name calling and general abuse, both from you, another BTS employee (he told me) and several gentlemen from the forum who don't seem awful sharp but do seem real keen on acting just sycophants act where I come from. You know, yes men, gladhanders, the kind of people who are happy to tell people of your description just what people of your descritpion are so eager to hear: "Gee, Steve, your game makes me weak all over. I just can't waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit for CMBO 2. Can we have a Super Stalingrad scenario? Puhleaaaaaaaaase?"

You see, I'm just not the adoring kind, Steve. I don't golly or gush. I do give credit where it is due, I criticize when I believe I have something constructive to offer. You don't seem to go for that combination of style. You want it all good, all golly and gush.

Just to be the Voice of Reason and Truth? We don't need it. Combat Mission was made without the benefit of your infinite wisdom and knowledge, and I can assure you that it will become better in the future. It amazes me how much contempt you have for the people that made this amazing game.

I have contempt for the way you handle yourself in public. I have admiration for the overall quality of your product. Can you not see the distinction between the two, and why I might be forced to draw this distinction?

If we did such a shoddy job making it...

You put words in my mouth. You continue to ignore the issue at hand. The line is the issue at hand. Address that, please.

...including HOW we made it (user feedback)...

If your user feedback mandated the institution of lines of demarcation between battles of operations then I'd say you 1) had bad user feedback in this instance and 2) were unwise to listen to it. That is for the reason that your lines do not work . . . .

...why the Hell are you wasting your time playing and discussing it?

Because I want the lines fixed. In that manner operations would make a lot more sense.

One would expect you should have much more important things to do with your life than waste it here discussing your brilliance with us morons.

There is probably more than a little truth in that . . . but why don't we try to control "ourselves" and get back to the issue at hand. The lines. They don't work. Why can't you just flat out admit that if nothing else? No one can force you to make good changes to your game, but common sense dictates that this denial can do you no possible good, and who knows, it might become a worrisome habit over time.

(ifithasntbecomeaworrisomehabitalready)

Sheesh...

Sheesh back to you, Steve. So how about the lines? Also, please rethink your implied stance that customers need approach BTS "hat in hand." I find that unacceptable.

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 11-26-2000).]

[Tris]

Tris said:You mean to tell me you cannot conceive of anyone able to go through his life not worried about what other people think of him?

No, we can't conceive of someone being such an assh*** for no reason whatsoever other than because his ego is so inflated that he can't think straight because of his swollen cranium.

I know you don't care what I think of you nor the others. Your the crusader of all war games championing the cause where ever you find it being stomped upon and only your arrogant attitude is worthy of anyone's attention! Without your refreshing, authority defying views all of us weak and unispired boot lickers would not know the glory of wargamedom as you would

have it be. You are the people's champion!

Thank god you have arrived!

No matter how you RATIONALIZE the methods in which you attempt to enlighten us all with your superior intellect, it still comes out the same. A turd is still a turd even if you tell me it's a rose. You dig?

Now go head and tell me to go to bed.

Let's see, Mord. You rant, you scream as would a child, you throw little tantrums, you wantonly call others names . . . in brief, you generally conduct yourself in public like some unwashed and unread cretin, and yet you wonder why I look upon you and this behavior askance? Well, I guess I shouldn't expect better now that I think on it.

No matter. Continue as you please.

[Tris]

When you say "be himself in all situations" what you mean is to dare to insult someone if they disagree with your point. That is, after all, what you have done and is what I was talking about. You're trying to make your actions sound far more noble than they are.

People must take insult. Insult is not something one "gives." It is much the same as the verb to teach, which is a misnomer of sort. This is because in reality you cannot really teach anyone anything--you can only help them, perhaps inspire them, to try to learn for themselves. Think of the addage: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."

So true.

I also note that in my experience people take insult when and why they want to and for reasons peculiar to their circumstances. I get around this (if not exactly with ease) by simply refusing to take insult. That's not to say I can't imagine something being "insulting," of course I can. But I do not allow myself to feel this reaction.

If you or anyone else is not strong enough or possessed of the capacity or whatever it takes to see and act on this wisdom, that's too bad. Then go through your lives feeling all the insult you want. It's on you, though.

That's about as far as I care to take it, Vanir. The rest of what you've written is more or less of a brutish nature. You go around "clocking" people just to add "spice" to your life? Whatever. It's a large planet and I need not live next to you.

I wish you well, sir.

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 11-26-2000).]

[Tris]

Yeah, I am happy to be a sychophant, hoping that if I lick enough boots around here, follow blindly, and don't rock the boat, some game designers and people I have never met mightlike me better.. (huh?)

That pretty much sums it up, Captain Foobar, and doesn't that just sound silly to you?

[Tris]

Hey, a sycophant discussion! Oh boy! I missed the first one, maybe I can get in on this one!

You mean to say there was a first one--must I do . . . a search?

[aka_tom_w]

WOW !!!

Now this is whole thing is just getting Dumb and Silly, and totally out of hand. I'm surprised we have not seen the padlock yet.

What ever happened to Happy Thanks Giving and Have a Great long Weekend to all our American friends?

Is that too much to ask?

Just a Little cease fire over the long weekend?

Too Much!

Just way over the top, and that goes for ALL the ranting and raving in this thread.

-tom w

[Tris]

I agree and would be happy only to be rid of . . . the line.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

From Tris:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...why anything which approaches criticism of the system is shouted down?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm.. I dont remember trying to silence you at all. In fact, I am hoping to get some more funny quotes out of you for my scrapbook. You are hilarious.

Yes, Tris. Everyone thinks that the line abstraction is less than perfect. It is an abstraction which YOU feel is totally unacceptable. Well, it stops right there.

Your input is not required. BTS will survive, and continue to improve without you. You may feel like you are helping by "dying on this hill", but any changes to Operations will probably happen with or without you.

But most importantly, look at what stage CMBO is in. The game is 5 months old. TCP-IP will be here in a matter of days. I would love to see this addressed in a patch for CMBO. But as they are already gearing up for CM2, and with the complications of a major redesign that a fix would entail, can you see how a reasonable design team might leave it for CM2?

I still hope they can do something about it soon, but I am still having a great time with CM.

In honor of this damned thread, KwazyDawg and I are starting an Operation.. Wish us luck!

[Tris]

In honor of this damned thread, KwazyDawg and I are starting an Operation.. Wish us luck!

You'll need it after the first battle unless the map runs absolutely N-S or E-W and comes awful skinnny.

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 11-26-2000).]

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tris:

I also note that in my experience people take insult when and why they want to and for reasons peculiar to their circumstances. I get around this (if not exactly with ease) by simply refusing to take insult. That's not to say I can't imagine something being "insulting," of course I can. But I do not allow myself to feel this reaction.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The oddest thing about all this is that Tris doesn't seem to understand the concept of emotions, and how the niceties of pleasant conversation and compromise can affect the way people approach a problem. Tone, Tris, is important. I'd say that you've ruined whatever chance you had to influence Steve's decisions in CM2. Simply because you have a computer and the ability to use it does not mean that everyone has to listen to you. For that matter, you don't need to listen to us. The consequence of not listening, of course, is that it becomes pointless to argue.

Quit while you still have a small measure of dignity, Tris. Just a suggestion. It's also a good idea, when you next frequent a BBS, to not assume that everyone who posts there is a company hack and yes-man.

And with that, I think we should all just settle down and retreat to our respective corners. There is no point in name calling.

-Andrew

------------------

"No, it's not that kind of relationship. We're just friends. We are together all the time, but I never touch her porcelain skin, her soft, red lips, like rose petals from the emperor's bathwater! Bathwater, I tell you, bathwateeeeeeer!"

[Tris]

Quit while you still have a small measure of dignity, Tris.

That's your opinion. I feel as though I am in the right re lines of demarcation--being a "minority" doesn't faze me in the least.

Also, if I am in the right, then it doesn't say much for BTS, does it, that they would sit on the issue just because I'm not an especially ingratiating fellow? This seems all the more clear in this case since the elimination of said lines would not pose much of a programming issue--as far as I know. (I've mentioned that point any number of times; as no one has bothered to correct me I presume to believe I'm right on that score as well.)

Just a suggestion. It's also a good idea, when you next frequent a BBS, to not assume that everyone who posts there is a company hack and yes-man.

I never assume anything of the kind. I do think people behave as they think, however, and when they behave like company men or gladhanders or whatever you have then I suppose that is precisely what they are. If calling them such "insults" them that's a crying shame.

Re this board in particular: it is chock full of people of the description I've given elsewhere, and they always come out of the woodwork whenever anyone presses home his point with BTS. These people are abusive and, as far as I can tell, not very well educated. In a nutshell I consider them a sorry lot.

For what it's worth, BTS itself (at least as represented by Steve's conduct on more than one occasion, and not just in relation to me on this thread) is not without fault with this sort of behavior in mind. The terms "shallow," thin skinned" and "crude" come to mind when I think about it, though I try to not think about it much.

Now just go ahead and ignore that if you choose and continue instead to heap responsibility for the behavior of other people onto me. If that pleases you it tickles me pink.

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 11-26-2000).]

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tris:

The rest of what you've written is more or less of a brutish nature. You go around "clocking" people just to add "spice" to your life? Whatever. It's a large planet and I need not live next to you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I intentionally exaggerated my point, but it appears to have gone over your head despite my efforts. Your words towards others who disagree with you are frequently of a brutish nature (insults instead of fists). You dismiss the legitimacy of being physically brutal, yet casually embrace verbal abuse. You justify your abrasive tone by labeling it as simply "the truth as you see it" and castigate those who don't brush off your barbs. If you expect others to ignore your taunts why do you bother making them? I was merely trying to point out that negative actions towards others, whether physical or verbal, do have negative consequence and your dismissal of what anyone else thinks of you for it is a mistake.

Ah, well. I too have said about all I have to say on the subject of Tris.

As far as Tris's proposal goes... I think it's worth consideration. The elimination of the line in operations is an imperfect solution to the current problem, but it may be the easiest to implement without a major overhaul of the code. As an OPTION simply let all units stay where they end the day and be resupplied in place. People can chose this option or not as they see fit. Is this realistic? In the case of infantry it could be in most cases. In the case of tanks likely not. However, this may be an area where it is better to sacrifice a bit of realism for the sake of playability.

------------------

You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[Guest Big Time Software]

Tris,

You really are a piece of work. You have done nothing wrong and I am the boogyman. I have overreacted and treated you wrongly, because you have done nothing but politely suggest changes to better the game. You have never been purposefully insulting to me or anybody else, yet everybody appears to have some sort of irrational problem with your deep insight and reasonable positions.

Have I understood your position on events well enough? Well, before I posted to this thread I found these really polite and respectful comments about about BTS in general and myself specifically. All because I answered a direct question of yours (which you phrased rudely after a history of personal attacks upon me)...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As you can tell, this is one of those game-play issues BTS has decided to dig its heels in on, so until they decide to listen to reason we're stuck with this bad design decision.

I really don't think BTS is amenable to sensible change on this topic. It seems to be the case that they've simply decided to ignore the issue altogether, judging from the poor response I've had to date from Steve.

Speaking only for myself, since we've come this far with the 3D concept for wargames I'd hate like hell to "rest on our laurels" but would rather make it continually better, and if this progress must come at the expense of someone's brittle ego then so be it.

It was a bad concept to begin with, and Steve's response to me was, at best, unintelligent.

But BTS has also refused any number of reasonable requests, this business of "magical lines" in operations being only the most recent example.

Sorry, but I do not view my attitude as being anything like negative. I do, however, refuse to accept the sort of response Steve directed my way re lines of demarcation in operations. I made good points, and he all but told me to go take a long walk off a short pier. It was, in fact, Steve who came across with an "negative attitude" during that short exchange, not I. He did so by claiming matter-of-factly the the issue had already been closely studied by BTS and the conclusion was that we were lucky to have any operations at all due to Charles being in some sort of snit about it, or something like that.

Sorry again, but that doesn't make it by half. First of all, if Charles can't "take it" that's not my problem but Charles's. If Charles doesn't have the patience to field lots of suggestions for improvement that is also an issue for Charles to look into and not for me. Am I getting through?

Let me ask you this: how hard would it have been, really, to have figured this out during playtest and arrived at something better? Did the playtesters all suffer from lockjaw, did BTS simply ignore intelligent feedback? What's going on here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is only about half of what was there, not to mention all the kind things Tris had to say about anybody else that disagreed with him (no matter how politely).

From your very first post with me you have shown nothing but arrogant comtempt for me personally. I tried VERY hard to treat you with respect, but you know... I bet if you repeatedly kick an otherwise calm dog you would be screaming for it to be put to sleep if it bit you. You reap what you sow, and you have been very busy establishing yourself as the most arrogant and offensive personality to date on this BBS. If that was your intent, you have done very well. If it was not your intent, seek professional help as soon as possible. Scratch that. In either case seek professional help.

Steve

[Tris]

Wonderful, and all this advice coming from someone with your stellar record of treating others with respect at all times. Fact is you're the kind of person who will not brook any criticism, Steve, either of yourself or the game system you're here to sell.

As for my long history of making personal attacks on you: well, if terming the locking of threads and the deletion of posts "censorship" is a personal attack on you then I stand convicted, but I really don't believe that so I think I'll walk away free this time afterall.

Thanks again for your insight and respectful manner, though.

[Tris]

Oh yeah, and now I'm outta this thread, too.

[BIG DD]

some body can this clown

------------------

MAKE IT SHORT AND SWEET THEN GET THE F#$K OUT

[Guest Big Time Software]

Tris wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This is the way you conduct yourself in public, with a customer a no less, and then anyone wonders why the airheads follow suit, why anything which approaches criticism of the system is shouted down?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, this is what happens when someone who has clearly come onto this private BBS with some rather large chips on his shoulder and tries his hardest to insult, demean, belittle, and in general anger anybody who has a thought that runs contrary to his own opinions. As others have pointed out, being thought of poorly by your peers, for no other reason than you have treated them all like crap on your shoe, is certainly not something to be proud of.

Oh... and about the "customer" thing. Read the license agreement. Nowhere in there does it say that the $45 purchase price of the game gives you the right to blatantly abuse us at a personal level. So I don't understand where you got the idea that this was permissible. But if you feel that this is unreasonable of us, crack the CD in half and mail it (along with the manual) back to us. I will gladly give you a full refund to correct this problem. Frankly, with customers like you who needs enemies?

I must also state here that are abusing your privilege to post here on this BBS (see the Agreement). But since you are still on the entertaining side of abusive your posting privileges will remain in effect for now. This is not a threat BTW, just a reminder that you are in violation of the Agreement and that this is a private BBS and that you nned to behave like a civil human being more than you have shown so far. You say you don't intend to change your personality for our benefit. Fine, but don't be surprised if we don't change our requirements for civility to accommodate you in this regard.

BTW, I once knew a kid like you. He went out of his way to piss off people that had no prior reason to be at odds with him. He would do this to the point of provoking physical violence against himself. He wound up killing his entrained wife's lawyer, shooting a cop who came to his aid, and then offed himself as the cops closed in. Hopefully you will not go this extra step and just keep it to pissing people off who have no prior reason to be angry with you.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

Tris wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Oh yeah, and now I'm outta this thread, too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ALERT -> pattern showing up here! When Tris has dug his own pit deep enough, and gets called on it (like the last time, which he has selective memory about) he leaves the thread.

Not surprised. The biggest bullies are the ones to run away the quickest when it is clear that they have lost the shoving match that, incidentally, they started.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

For those of you that are curious to see how this all started, check out:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/012477.html

If you want to see where Tris cut and ran, you can skip to the last page at:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/012477-3.html

As for my behavior directed at Tris, he has left us only two options:

1. Not respond at all, but instead ban him.

2. Flush him out into the open so that everybody else can see him for what he really is (an egomaniac of the highest order).

I suppose there is a third option, which would be to absorbe his attacks and insults in the name of "good customer relations", but there is no way that will happen. Nobody should accept this level of abuse from another, especially when it is done in his own "home" (this BBS is our virtual "home").

Steve

[Guest Pillar]

Woohoo! Long live the Scout Debate thread!

[Grisha]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also note that in my experience people take insult when and why they want to and for reasons peculiar to their circumstances. I get around this (if not exactly with ease) by simply refusing to take insult. That's not to say I can't imagine something being "insulting," of course I can. But I do not allow myself to feel this reaction.

If you or anyone else is not strong enough or possessed of the capacity or whatever it takes to see and act on this wisdom, that's too bad. Then go through your lives feeling all the insult you want. It's on you, though.

-- Tris<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seems that in denying the veracity of Insult you have unknowingly ended up embracing the concept of insulting behavior. Thus, you void your own comments among those who value civility, and mutual respect. This type of behavior will produce few friends, but I fear this is no concern of yours either. In any case, an unfortunate state of affairs, sir.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

To expand upon Grisha's post, it seems that Tris's holy war started as a RESULT of "taking insult" by replies given to him by BTS.

Now it seems here that he needs to take his own advice, and not react emotionally to statements made by other people. He can go through life taking all the insult he wants, but its on him.

Countless flame wars are started when people can't separate their egos from their opinions. If someone disputes your opinion on something, it is not a dispute of personalities.

[coralsaw]

Could it, in fact, be...

that Steve and Tris are the same person???

[This message has been edited by coralsaw (edited 11-27-2000).]