George Smith Patton

[Guest AbnAirCav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

The delay in opening Antwerp was not due to any lack of speed in the capture of the city itself, but to the presence of German forces along the northern bank of the long Scheldt estuary leading from the North Sea into the port. If instead of Market-Garden, Montgomery had launched an operation to prevent the Germans reinforcing their positions there and clearing the estuary as quickly as could have been done, supplies would have begun flowing at least a month earlier. With those supplies in hand, the Allies might not have been stalled on the borders of the Reich, which allowed the Germans breathing space to organize their defenses and prepare their attack in the Bulge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I agree with Michael. I went to my references, which show Antwerp captured on 4 Sept, but not listed as opened until 26 Nov. As we know, the brilliantly conceived but overly optimistic "Market-Garden" started on 17 Sept. The lack of Antwerp caused all the Allied armies serious logistics shortages, since on D+96 days they were approaching the German frontier (while the logistics plans were based on this happening about D+300) putting a tremendous strain on logistics, as they were still being supplied through Cherbourg and over the Normandy beaches.

[Major Tom]

Just did a little more reading in the dates and stuff, and it I did get the entire timing thing wrong. Yes, Monty did delay the clearing of the scheldt, which allowed for the Germans to pack in about the remnants of 3 Divisions (where it was otherwize undefended). I guess he really screwed up here, and us Canadians had to pay for his mistake. I condemn him for this action, but I still stand by my statement that he wasn't 100% useless.

In regards to Lord Dreaman, well, I have posted a few facts that state that Monty did actually, think on his feet, fight an extremely modern war and taking opportunities when he saw them (market garden WAS an opportunity). Condemning an operation that failed was just a total waste from the beginning is rediculous. War is a risk, every operation is a risk, just because one failed doesn't mean that it was a waste. In retrospect, things could have gone better, but, they didn't have the benefit of this that we do. Have you actually read of any of the accounts on Monty's actions? Seen a biography of him? Or have you just got your incling of the guy from the 'Patton' film? He is far from perfect, but, also far from incompetent.

In regards to my statement of the Patton vs. Monty debate arising every time one is mentioned, AbnAirCav, well, I was actually answering a few posts at a time (not just yours!), sorry for including everyone's statements into one post.

[Lord Dreaman]

In regards to Major Tom, I get my information from history books,biographies and reference books. I am sure there are exceptions where Monty actually showed some intelligence and thought on his feet but those were few and far between. Somewhere I read that Monty had said that he won Battle of the Bulge when he hadn't arrived there yet. Market Garden was a terrible idea from the beginning because there was only one road leading all the way to Arnhem. Even if Market Garden had succeded it still cost the Allies a lot. They lost a lot of men, weapons and supplies. Also a lot of their supplies went to Germans because the Germans had captured the Landing Zones. When Monty thought up the plan for Market Garden he thought it was going to be a cakewalk. They disregarded intelligence, i.e those tiger tanks that were shown under cover of trees. It just had too many flaws and what ifs to be successful. Now take the greatest General, i.e General Douglas Macarthur, he thought his plans out with precision, he knew where to strike, what the enemy's weakness was and so on so forth. Monty just couldn't see that, he was a slow general and he didn't see the Big Picture, he only saw the small picture. He never really thought ahead he was only concerned with the now. Going back to Patton, sure he made mistakes sometimes like slappping that soldier because he thought he was a coward but he didn't make too many of those. In order to be a damn good general you have to be able to see the big picture, you have to be able to seize opportunities when they are presented to you but Monty couldn't. Instead of doing Market Garden he could have focused his resources on getting Antwerp or helping Patton instead of hindering him.

------------------

Lord Dreaman master of Dreams

[Chupacabra]

Hrm. I'm not really sure that MacArthur is a great example of thinking ahead. The man did want to nuke Manchuria - probably not one of the most insightful ideas in military history.

------------------

Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Hrm. I'm not really sure that MacArthur is a great example of thinking ahead. The man did want to nuke Manchuria - probably not one of the most insightful ideas in military history.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And also his army got flung back from the Yalu River that winter and could have been cut off and destroyed. This in spite of many timely warnings that the Chinese were preparing just such an offensive. Not too shrewd, I'd say. If you look at all the more famous generals of WW II (or almost any era for that matter), you'll find some point (and maybe more than one) where they royally screwed up.

IMHO, neither the champions of Montgomery nor of Patton have any business throwing mud at each other. I personally lean more toward Patton, yet realize that he put his foot into it more than once. And while no great admirer of Monty, I acknowledge that much of his conservatism derived from a real, even if somewhat misconceived, desire to avoid spilling the blood of his troops unnecessarily. It is worth noting that he managed to offend nearly everyone he ever worked with except the Tommies in the lines, with whom he was always a great hit. His concern for them was, I believe, real and they sensed and responded to that.

Michael

[Firefly]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

And while no great admirer of Monty, I acknowledge that much of his conservatism derived from a real, even if somewhat misconceived, desire to avoid spilling the blood of his troops unnecessarily. It is worth noting that he managed to offend nearly everyone he ever worked with except the Tommies in the lines, with whom he was always a great hit. His concern for them was, I believe, real and they sensed and responded to that.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Normandy Monty was acting under War Office orders to minimise casualties, particularly infantry casualties which were occurring faster than they could be replaced. Of course being Monty he didn't bother to tell Eisenhower about these orders with the result that Eisenhower complained to Churchill about Monty's 'conservatism' and Churchill in turn had a stand up row with the CIGS, Alanbrooke, who didn't like Churchill criticising Monty for obeying his orders.

[Speedy]

patton and montgomery are both a pair of wankers. If you people want a decent general try Zhukov.

------------------

Work is the curse of the drinking class.

I have nothing else to say. Ya, quote that you rat bastards.

-Meeks

[Aacooper]

To bring the focus back on Patton's accomplishments, let's look at the 3rd Army's capture of Nancy.

Nancy and its environs were held by about three German divisions. The US 80th Division gained a bridgehead across the Moselle to the north, and from that bridgehead CCA of the 4th Armored exploited out towards Luneville, causing havoc in the rear of the German defenses. On the south, CCB of the 4th Armored completed the pincer movement. Encircled (though not tightly), the Germans had to give up Nancy, and the 35th Division rolled in without too much trouble (no trouble in Nancy itself).

Would a lesser commander have let CCA run around behind enemy lines for a few days? No, and that was Patton's gift -- guts!

(Students of the Lorraine campaign might point out there was more fighting than I spoke about, but the capture of Nancy was truly a nice manuever!)