Wittmann Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Has anyone commented on the 88's inability to fire whilst hitched. From my research, hasty deployment could be made by lowering the two moveable legs which made up the cross shaped base, without the need to remove the wheeled bogeys. I'm sure there's a term to cover this but it escapes me for the moment. P.S. I have so far escaped official assimilation......do the decent thing CMBorg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The CM Borg Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 [P.S. I have so far escaped official assimilation......do the decent thing CMBorg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Wittmann said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Has anyone commented on the 88's inability to fire whilst hitched. From my research, hasty deployment could be made by lowering the two moveable legs which made up the cross shaped base, without the need to remove the wheeled bogeys.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This was possible only with the PAK 43 version of the 88, due to the special design of its carriage. The other 88s in the game (PAK 43/41 and FLAK 18/36/37) did not have this feature. But even with the PAK 43, some set-up work was required. According to Ian Hogg, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It was ... possible to fire the gun from its wheels by swinging out the two side girders [of the cruciform carriage] and placing special firing pedestals beneath the jack feet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is going to be the work of a turn or 3, IMHO, based on experience with guns of similar size and design. The jack feet above mentioned have to be screwed down HARD onto whatever surface the gun is on, the ground or these pedestals, to keep the gun steady during firing. And the ground under the pedestals has to be scraped more or less level so the pedestals stand up straight and the whole gun ends up as close to level as possible. In CM, this question is somewhat moot, however. The PAK 43 cannot be limbered up during a game, so the only way to get in the hasty emplacement mode is to start the game with the gun hooked up. I've never played a scenario with the PAK 43, so don't know how long it takes to unlimber. If it's on the order of 2-3 minutes, however, I'd say that would be a fair approximation of the "hasty" emplacement technique. ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 09-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wittmann: Has anyone commented on the 88's inability to fire whilst hitched. From my research, hasty deployment could be made by lowering the two moveable legs which made up the cross shaped base, without the need to remove the wheeled bogeys. I'm sure there's a term to cover this but it escapes me for the moment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've seen photos of the Flak 88 being fired while still on its wheels. The legs that you refer to (there are four of them BTW) were not deployed. I think probably they would not have been in any case as they might not have reached the ground while the wheels were still on, at least that's my impression. Also, the entire point of firing limbered was to bring the gun into action *quickly*. The technique was to drive the tractor and gun towards the target until both were aligned, then turn the tractor to one side. As long as the gun was aligned along the longitudinal axis of the carriage, it was stable enough to tolerate the recoil without tipping. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittmann Posted September 7, 2000 Author Share Posted September 7, 2000 Thanks for the replies troops. I did realise there were 4 legs to the carriage, I only mentioned the two moveable ones Ahhh! I feel much better being one of the collective! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mensch Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: I've seen photos of the Flak 88 being fired while still on its wheels. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> yea but how long did it take the crew to catch up with the 88 after it fired? "Fire! *boom* again!...er... damn! You eight guys go run back and get our gun..ooohhh! mom told me I'd have days like this." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzvg Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Actually have seen an 8mm film of Rommel's troops using that method in the desert,while there was quite a bit of recoil, the fact that the gun was still hooked to it's towing vehicle seemed to make it stay in one spot ------------------ Pzvg "Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claus B Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: I've seen photos of the Flak 88 being fired while still on its wheels. The legs that you refer to (there are four of them BTW) were not deployed. I think probably they would not have been in any case as they might not have reached the ground while the wheels were still on, at least that's my impression. Also, the entire point of firing limbered was to bring the gun into action *quickly*. The technique was to drive the tractor and gun towards the target until both were aligned, then turn the tractor to one side. As long as the gun was aligned along the longitudinal axis of the carriage, it was stable enough to tolerate the recoil without tipping.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Michael is right. The 8,8cm Flak guns and the PaK 43 (but not the Pak 43/41) all had a cruciform carriage where the two side legs could be folded up when the gun was limbered for transport. When firing from the limbered position, the two side legs were folded down to allow easy acces to the gun and to add some stability while firing. The gun could then be fired from while on its wheels. There are both pictures and footage of this. An interesting aspect of this practice is that the limbered gun could be hooked onto the front of its tractor and pushed forward so only the gun was exposed. Handy in street fighting as seen on some photos from the French campaign in 1940. Btw, there was a special version of the 8,8cm Flak specifically built as an antitank gun in the late 1930ies. Besides having a the large shield, it also had some ammo stoorage containers mounted on the gun itself. This version of the Flak 8,8cm could no longer be used in the AA-role. Also built at this time was a special armoured version of the 12-ton tractor for towing these guns. Claus B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bullethead wrote: I've never played a scenario with the PAK 43, so don't know how long it takes to unlimber. If it's on the order of 2-3 minutes, however, I'd say that would be a fair approximation of the "hasty" emplacement technique.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IIRC it takes 8 minutes for the PAK43 to unlimber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Claus B said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Michael is right. The 8,8cm Flak guns and the PaK 43 (but not the Pak 43/41) all had a cruciform carriage where the two side legs could be folded up when the gun was limbered for transport. When firing from the limbered position, the two side legs were folded down to allow easy acces to the gun and to add some stability while firing. The gun could then be fired from while on its wheels. There are both pictures and footage of this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure, but at what angles? From what I've seen, the Flak 88s, which were carried atop a tall pedestal above the cruciform legs, could be fired from the wheels pretty much only when the tube was aligned essentially perpendicular to the axles. This was because only in this direction was there support. If you aimed the gun much to the side (more parallel with the axles), the gun would roll over sideways when fired. This limited a gun so deployed to a very narrow field of fire. So narrow, in fact, as to be pretty much useless except at extreme range, where the small angle opened out to a useful area of ground coverage. This might have worked on calm, non-mirage days in the flat, boring desert, where you can see forever, but wouldn't be useful in any other type of terrain. Also, as Mensch mentions, you had to leave the gun attached to the prime mover or you'd end up like that guy with the 40mm in that John Belushi movie "1941". Essentially, you could only fire down the axis of the prime mover. So all in all, the ability of the FLAK 88s to shoot while wheeled seems of such limited utility in European battles as to not warrant inclusion in CM. The PAK 43 solved these problems in 2 ways. First, being an ATG, it sat MUCH lower than the FLAK 18/36/37 family, so had much less tendency to roll the whole assembly over when fired to the sides. Second, it had the above-mentioned special firing platforms that could be put under the side legs to provide lateral stability. The FLAK guns didn't have either of these features. PrivateJoe said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>IIRC it takes 8 minutes for the PAK43 to unlimber.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, upon further review, this doesn't seem so bad, either. That is, assuming you totally unhook from the prime mover. In such a case, even if you leave the wheels on the carriage, you still have to lower fore-and-aft jacks to get them off the ground to avoid the "1941 Syndrome". ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 09-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer '88' Meyer Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 The FLAK 88 can firing from a limbered position. Rommel used this to great effect in North Africa. I have read many accounts in particular of his drive against the 1st Amrmoured Division. HE would have two lines on of 88's and the other of tanks. The 88's would fire from this limbered position while the tanks advanced past that line, the tanks would stop and fire, the 88's advance forming a new line in front of the panzers. Fire again from limbered while the panzers again move forward and create a new line. I remember this clearly. However the sources escape me at this time. I do know that this was difficult on the 88's and they we're not as accurante or as flexible in this role. So there was a big trade off on doing this, but then again we all know how much Rommel loved speed 8-) ------------------ Panzer '88' Meyer Play Combat Mission at The Grognards http://www.thegrognards.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wittmann: I did realise there were 4 legs to the carriage, I only mentioned the two moveable ones <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You're right, Wittman. I was forgetting that two of the legs are fixed. My bad. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apex Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you aimed the gun much to the side (more parallel with the axles), the gun would roll over sideways when fired.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No. Even when fired from the wheeled trailer, the two supporting legs were extended to the sides. A nice thread on the 88 is at http://www.wwiionline.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000331.html BTW, this isn't the only place where grogs hang out apex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 I said something like: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Flak 88 will roll over if fired sideways while on wheels<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> apex said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No. Even when fired from the wheeled trailer, the two supporting legs were extended to the sides<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, but I have to disagree. The Flak's side legs did not touch the ground while the wheels were still under the front and back legs. And they didn't have the special firing pedestals that that PAK 43 had for its side legs. So, with the Flak 18/36/37, if you fired the gun sideways on the wheels, the recoil force had a good lever arm due to the height of the gun barrel above the axis of rotation. Then it could get started rolling in that direction due to the leg feet being about 1' or so off the ground. And once you get that much mass moving, that leg isn't going to stop it. Over she goes. ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfred Posted September 9, 2000 Share Posted September 9, 2000 Here is some imformation on the subject. There is an actual picture of an 88 being fired while still mounted. http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/8662/88mm2.html http://www.achtungpanzer.com/88mm.htm http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/8452/88.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 10, 2000 Share Posted September 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Here is some imformation on the subject. There is an actual picture of an 88 being fired while still mounted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Only the 1st link has such a picture. The caption says, "A sudden tank attack must be fought off. Only in exceptional cases was the gun fired directly from its trailor. The side spars are folded down, but the gun has not been lowered." You can see why. The gun is resting totally on the 4 small jacks at the end of each cross leg. So these are getting a lot of sheer and bending stresses each shot. In fact, it looks like the gun has rocked back on the left rear wheel set--it looks bent already, although that may just be prior fender damage. I sure wouldn't want to fire the thing like this BTS has a tradition of not putting things in the game that were used "only in exceptional circumstances". IF by IGs and WP as an anti-tank round come to mind. So I wouldn't hold your breath for this. ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfred Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 Dear Bullethead, If you get the opportunity to view "Die Deutschen Panzer ", No.3, you will actually see real footage of 88's firing on the Western Front still HITCHED. Hope this clears matters for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 mfred said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you get the opportunity to view "Die Deutschen Panzer ", No.3, you will actually see real footage of 88's firing on the Western Front still HITCHED.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I doubt I'll get such an opportunity, so please describe the way it was done, with particular attention to what model of 88 is shooting, the presence of any prime mover, which legs were down and how they are stabilized, and the angle of fire relative to the longitudinal axis of the carriage ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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