Guest mch Posted January 12, 2000 Share Posted January 12, 2000 Hello. I have a few questions about the final version: 1)Will CM include rifle grenades?Tanks with Nahverteidigungswaffe close defense systems? 2)Will passengers(squads in particular)be able to fire from HT/AFV's? 3)How is AFV/AFV combat modeled in the case of moving targets?From what i understand of U.S. tank doctrine in WWII,it seems the order of the day was "only stop moving to fire."however,in CM i usuallly achive a better result from a static line formation, even against turretless StuG IIIs. 4)(can't figure how to word this one) Ex. in "Last Defense" the hellcat TDs usually attempt to outgun the german armor from the hilltop.This is,by my way of thinking,exactly what the german player wants to see.I guess what i am getting at is,can the AI determine that it has a better chance at survival,and killing,by trying to make for cover?(town for example)? P.S.:How are the closer combats handled? inf/AFV,AFV/inf,inf/inf. P.S.S.: Good work,Even the beta demo is amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 12, 2000 Share Posted January 12, 2000 Hello MCH! Some easy answers for you... 1. Rifle Grenades were JUST added yesterday, thanks to the tireless research efforts of Los (thanks Los ). They now work similar to the German Panzerfausts in terms of game mechanics. The Nahfwhatsitcalled is already in the Beta Demo you are using. 2. No. This was debated briefly before and pretty much everybody agreed with us that this did not happen in all but rare circumstances. 3. No easy answer here. "Complex math and physics" is the best answer I can give you. Firing on the move is definately less accurate than firing still. However, at the fairly close engagement ranges seen in the demo scenarios, it is quite reasonable to see hits from vehicles on the move. Do a Search for this topic as there has been a few discussions about it in the past. 4. To some extent the TacAI will move vehicles to cover when it feels that would be the better tactic. But not always otherwise you would NEVER be able to engage a Tiger from anything BUT cover, which is not only frustrating from a user PoV but also unrealistic. So only when the vehicle feels that it doesn't have much more than a off chance of scoring a kill, yet is in mortal danger, will it seek cover. And the vehicle will never go too far from where it already is as this becomes more of a strategic decision instead of a tactical one. In LD the Hellcats have a very good chance of killing the Tiger and anything else out there. Of course, it also has a very good chance of getting KO'd too Welcome to the not-so-fun world of tank duels! 5. Close combat is quite complex. Basically all the physics you would expect. The big benefit of a game model built on 3D physics is that it is scalable to a large degree, so special case stuff isn't necessary for the most part. However, there are special attacks such as grenades, PFs, hand to hand, etc. that kick in at the correct ranges. Also, units are more unlikely to "unload" at close ranges, so expect to see your precious ammo counts decrease rapidly in close proximity to enemy units. 6. Thanks Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest phoenix Posted January 12, 2000 Share Posted January 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Rifle Grenades were JUST added yesterday,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Holy cow! I swear I just read a few days ago that they would not be in. Cool! Can you provide more detail how they will work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 12, 2000 Share Posted January 12, 2000 Yeah what Pheonix said!!! And thanks, Los -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard III Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 Aaargh! I just can't get over how impressed I am with BTS and the members of this board. It is a real pity that other game companies don't have even one tenth the dedication of this one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 Were rifle grenades that commonly used in WW2? ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 It wasn't just me, I just collated some research that I had and followed up on leads others sent me and then was lucky enough to confirm some stuff with some vets. And yes at least for teh US rifle grenades were very common, though also very underreported. All the major powers in NW Europe had various rifle greandes systems, though the US had the most successful porgram. Cheers... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 Los and those who helped....great job...I "felt" like rifle grenade was much used by US forces....but had no data, just a few stories...Thanks for researching and submitting the data. Of course hats off to BTS for their dedication to accuracy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 Now that rifle grenades are in ... how will their ammo be tracked? Will it just be lumped into the squad ammo count, or tracked seperately? If it is lumped in with the rest of the ammo (eg rifle and MG ammo), then we could have the odd situation of a squad that hasn't fired any of its rifles or MGs being out of ammo because it sat back and dropped 40 (or whatever the squad ammo count is) rifle grenades onto distant targets. More info please? Regards Jon ------------------ Ubique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 JonS, Steve said they would work like the german Panzerfaust. I havnt yet seen them in action, but this sounds to me like it means that they are tracked per individual rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 Adding Rifle Grenades at this stage was an exception. A while ago we felt it was something we needed to look into more, but decided to bite that chunk off after release. But once Los presented all the stuff he had collected (no matter where it came from, he was the one that presented it ) it became clear that: 1. US rifle grenades were quite common during CM's timeframe. 2. They had a significant, if underrated impact, on combat at CM's scale. 3. There was an existing mechanism that we could employ to simulate rifle grenade use. These are the three things we needed to see for something like this to happen. If any one of these hadn't been so clearcut we probably would have passed on it until a later revision. Sometimes the Gods of Development smile upon us Their use is, like the Dog Which Is Kwazy says, exactly like Panzerfausts in terms of game mechanics. Each squad will have a certain number of rifle grenades. The TacAI will decide when they should be used. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Their use is, like the Dog Which Is Kwazy says, exactly like Panzerfausts in terms of game mechanics. Each squad will have a certain number of rifle grenades. The TacAI will decide when they should be used.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the info. Can you give us a bit more of it tho? Like are you using them primarily for anti-tank weapons or do they have some frag effect instead/as well ? -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 I'm not really sure about the details yet. Too new But Charles intends to weigh them more towards AT than HE. From what I understand the TacAI will decide which it is when it goes to attack. Although not GREAT at AT, it is better than hand thrown grenades for sure. Should give the US squads a wee extra fear factor for lightly armored German vehicles. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 Way to go Los!!! There was a thread a few weeks ago where Los brought up the topic of rifle grenades. True to BTS's word, if enough information is provided they will include something. The information I have regarding German rifle grenades indicates that they were more geared towards AT performance than against soft targets. It's good to hear that they will be included, especially because I like to play the Americans. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 Hehe... we are not planning on putting in German rifle grenades. The jury is still out on that one. There is some decent info about the earlier "cup" launchers, but they seem to have been phased out by 1944. The replacement may or may not have gone into wide spread production and/or distribution. Since the German squads have PFs, the lack of rifle grenades won't be felt even if they were more common than we think. Jury is also still out on British rifle grenades. From the little info we have we don't think they should be simulated. As before, we welcome info on this! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted January 13, 2000 Share Posted January 13, 2000 Just to support Steve's comments... In the data we have been able to dig up on the Germans, a strong argument could be made that while the Germans were well into the rifle grenade "thing" early in the war, they gradually evolved over to Panzerfausts and Panzershrecks and away from rifle grenades. They had several interesting AT rifle grenade systems, but never developed an acceptable and popular HE rifle grenade. However I've learned that there is always more to be learned on any given sub-subject in this endevour. If anyone has got better data on OPERATIONAL use of rifle grenades (We have plenty of data on the technical side) or even some production figures on how many grenades were produced, send them along to me los@cris.com. In particular we need more info on the British in this respect, and while you are at it if anyone digs up any thing "rifle-grenadish" on Russia, Italian, or Japanese forces then send that along too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Steve said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm not really sure about the details yet. Too new. But Charles intends to weigh them more towards AT than HE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That would be cool--give US squads some organic AT capability . But a frag version would be nice, too, if you get around to it. I'm really glad you all put this in the game, even if it means a few more weeks of dealy on getting it to me. Just in case you were wondering. NOTE TO SELF: quit posting when drunk -Bullethead [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 01-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Oh, well. I guess I don't mind too much that German rifle grenades are not being included. Anything that the rifle grenades were meant to do could easily be done better with a Panzerfaust anyway. Although it's just a guess, it seems logical that rifle grenades, given that they weren't that cost effective, would be faze out with the introduction of the panzerfaust. I guess I've got some reasearch ahead of me on rifle grenades for possible inclusion for other nationalities in CM2. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Yes and post results here.. I had always thought rifle grenade use by Americans was mostly confined to the Pacific (rifle grenades= organic bunker busters etc).. This has been an educational thread for me.. I'm much more knowledgeable about German weaponry than US weaponry so hearing knowledgeable Americans (and others) discuss weapons usage here is a boon. Keep it up and if more things get in to increase the accuracy of the game then so much the better ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Here's a link to a grenade site I found interesting, pardon if you've already seen it: http://www.pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/index.htm The Grenade Recognition Manual sounds like a welcome addition to any coffee table. There are some interesting photos in the Grenade Launcher section, if you scroll down to it. I don't know whether the manual would include the useful stuff, like range, minimum arming distance and blast radius. Anybody got one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Los wrote: In particular we need more info on the British in this respect, and while you are at it if anyone digs up any thing "rifle-grenadish" on Russia, Italian, or Japanese forces then send that along too. Soviets also used rifle grenades and had at least two different models (one that was launched with a blank round and one that was launched with live ammo). I can't say how common they were, but they were definitely used. I can try to dig out more information on that. Soviets had many relatively unknown weapon systems. For example, how many of you did know that Soviets designed a recoilless gun family as early as mid 30s? There were at least four different types: a 76 mm field gun, a heavier howitzer (I can't remember its size), a recoilless heavy AA-gun (I can't imagine why _anybody_ would think that as a good idea), and a recoilless super-heavy mortar (I don't think that this was a particularly brilliant idea, either). The Finns captured two of the 76mm guns with some ammunition. One gun was sent to Germany in late 1940 and the other was tested here. The gun had reasonably good performance and it was light (some 550 kg). I don't have any idea why the Soviets did not take it into widspread service. And as for interesting AT devices. A Finnish officer once suggested constructing a AT javelin. The design would have a 500g shaped charge warhead attached to a javelin. I think that he had made some preliminary tests and claimed that it would be accurate up to 40 meters. The weapon (thankfully) never materialized. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 While this is an old thread (relatively speaking), I feel the need to add my voice those who marvel at how BTS exhibits a unique combination of commitment to realism that supercedes ego or pride of ownership along with a phenomenal degree of customer service. Fantastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: I'm not really sure about the details yet. Too new But Charles intends to weigh them more towards AT than HE. From what I understand the TacAI will decide which it is when it goes to attack. Although not GREAT at AT, it is better than hand thrown grenades for sure. Should give the US squads a wee extra fear factor for lightly armored German vehicles. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry for digging up an old thread, but in all my searches I could never find the range of the rifle grenades. The panzerfausts have 3 ranges, 30m, 60m, and 100m. Since the rifle grenades act like panzerfausts, I'm wondering the range. I personally have not seen one used in CM1 due to the fact the TacAI hasn't deemed them necessary. But if that's all I have to take out a Stug, I'd like to know how close I have to be before the TacAI even considers this. The research that Los dug up indicated a range of as much as 200m for the M1903 (which I suppose is the type of grenade launcher modeled), but I suspect that it's nowhere near that in CM1. BTW, Los, if you're still here, thanks for doing all the research back in Dec to get BTS to put rifle grenades in the game. Also, how much penetration can be expected? I suppose a rifle grenade vs. a Tiger or Panther is out of the question but what about vs. a PZ IV, or Stug, or Hetzer? ------------------ Jeff Abbott [This message has been edited by Juardis (edited 09-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 I have seen rifle grenades used a couple times against German armor at close assault range, around 40m or less. They both hit the MkIVs to no effect. They may go out to 200m but I think their effective range is much smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoePrivate: I have seen rifle grenades used a couple times against German armor at close assault range, around 40m or less. They both hit the MkIVs to no effect. They may go out to 200m but I think their effective range is much smaller.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That distance seems about right. I saw them take out one of Mensch's Panzer IV in a vicious street-combat, and one or two HTs at that distance. The 200m is certainly not where the AI thinks it can acheve anything. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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