Kraut Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 There are two things i've noticed in a PBEM game that seem odd. 1)How do you sneak in the game? It seems even if i crawl through woods enemy tanks can still see my two man schreck teams. This is one example only: I have a schreck team which is crawling through scattered trees towards a buttoned M5. It crawls up to about 110m and is fired at by the tank before it fired itelf. I havn't read the manual on sneaking or hiding yet, but i would assume that in real life, if i had a lone buttoned tank i could easily sneak up a two man team and get off at least one good shot. The schreck team was green, so this might have something to do with it. Possibly the scattered trees do not offer enough protection? Has anyone of the beta testers been able to snaek around the battlefield with infantry squands and smaller teams? Am i just doing something wrong or is this not possible? 2)Strange situation. I had two pz4's with regular crews about 150m away from a light building which was blocking LOS for both panzers to an enemy tank. I odered area fire on the building to bring it down in order to have LOS on the tank. Well, about 30 secs into the turn the building crumbles, but my two tnaks continute to shoot at the rubble? They had clear LOS on the tank, since i ordered them to fire on the enemy the next orders phase. The other weird thing here is that the enemy tank didn't target them either. Maybe there's a bug here? Or maybe the game is a little bit too "sticky" in this situation? MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kump Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 In the Gold Demo (no CM yet, you lucky dog), I have noticed that area fire will "stick" for the entire 60 seconds, regardless of local threats. When you targeted the building, you were in fact just targeting the ground just inside the building. Once the building collapsed, the ground is still there and the area target is still active. Granted, other threats should cancel the area fire, but I can imagine some would scream about it. In the CM environment, threats are everywhere. You can imagine trying to knock down a building and never getting a shot off because the TacAI continuously perceives a threat. Guess the rule is, only target a location when you have other vehicle(s) covering and let the other vehicle(s) fire at the now exposed target when the building collapses during the 60 second turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 ok, this is just a guess / question... The rubbled buildings are represented as flat. But maybe they still provides some LOS block that we don't percieve? just a thought. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring [This message has been edited by Lorak (edited 06-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonicc Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Best guess. I believe that a rubble tile is still a LOS blocker. As for the sneaking schreck team, Being green is a definitely a big minus when trying to sneak. .02 worth ------------------ Teutonicc The MEMBER Formerly Known as Teutonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 The question of rubble blocking LOS exists somewhere else on the forum- it does still block LOS to some degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 23, 2000 Author Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teutonicc: Best guess. I believe that a rubble tile is still a LOS blocker. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, as i said, the next turn i had LOS to the tanks and actually targetted it, and after shooting one round the enemy tank fired back (the enemy tank didn't target my tanks during the previous turn wehre i brought down the house). It seems to be a bug in that the player can see the enemy and manually target, but the game (or tacAI or whatever you wanna call it) doesn't realize there is LOS and therefore doesn't respond ot the threat. MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The question of rubble blocking LOS exists somewhere else on the forum- it does still block LOS to some degree<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> According to the CM manual, page 46: "RUBBLE: These are leftovers after a building has collapsed. Vehicles may not enter rubble. It provides excellent cover and concealment for infantry, though. LOS is heavily restricted across rubble, but only to a certain height (which is naturally much lower than the building previously was)." ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Morgue Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Kraut, Just write off the LOS as being block by dust and smoke from the colapsed building , after a few seconds , dust and smoke cleared and then tanks could engage one an another, to me that is more realistic than it being clear the moment of colapse. just my couple pennies worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Hi Kraut, I have sent suggested that Charles take a look at this, but I think the answers are: 1. Green troops do not sneak very well. Dummies forget to secure their messkits from clanking against their shovels and have yet to master the art of keeping ones' ass from sticking up in the air 2. Were either sets of vehicles moving at all? It could be a combo of dust and LOS blocking, along with the end of the turn, that combined to do this. Don't forget that vehicles have a reaction time and that must be factored in as well. Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 23, 2000 Author Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: 1. Green troops do not sneak very well. Dummies forget to secure their messkits from clanking against their shovels and have yet to master the art of keeping ones' ass from sticking up in the air <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's what i was thinking too I will have to keep an eye out in the coming battles on how well veteran, crack and elite troops perform in similar situation. What i really would like to know is, if the crawl command is actually good for this kind of sneaking up and surprising an enemy who is dumb enough to let his tanks sit there and do nothing. Have you guys used it before and are these attacks successfull using the crawl command? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 2. Were either sets of vehicles moving at all? It could be a combo of dust and LOS blocking, along with the end of the turn, that combined to do this. Don't forget that vehicles have a reaction time and that must be factored in as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> All three vehicles were not moving. My two panzers and the enemie's chaffee were standing around for several turns. At the beginning of turn 13, i ordered both tanks to fire at the light building which was blocking LOS. They did this and after about 30 seconds the building collapsed. Both panzers kept firing at the rubble for the remainder of the turn (think about 3 rounds each). Neither would retarget to the obvious threat the chaffee presented (chaffees are nasty little buggars). Nor did the chaffee target either one of my panzers. At the beginning of turn 14 i ordered one of my tanks to fire at the chaffee (the other one lost its gun due to arty). The panzer targeted the chaffee, aimed for a few seconds, fired, and of course, MISSED! Only after my panzer had fired did the chaffee aquire my lone panzer and shoot it to pieces (big friggin explosion). So there was definitely something fishy going on since neither side actually acknowledged the presence of LOS to the enemy. I based this "chaffee elimination plan" on the assumption that once the house came down, BOTH my panzers would aquire the chaffee and almost instantly retarget to this threat. Just for the record, i wouldn't have mind losing one panzer, since they obviously are piles of scrap mettle on tracks and can't even stand up to one little light tank ... BAH! MK *POSSIBLE SPOILER STUFF BELOW* * * * * * * ps. I think the operation "Noville: Team DeSobry" is "broken". I scored a total axis victory in the qhole operation after the very first battle even though i lost EVERY piece of armor and EVERY armored scout car. My opponent lost 13 tanks and vehicles. It could have been that the allied wasn't allowed to lose so much armor, but there was no mention of this in the briefing! [This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 06-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffen Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 i was playing a game VOT and my panther was targeting a building when a sherman moved into los then stopped and started pumping shots into my panther .my panther had LOS on the sherman but it kept shooting at the building .both tanks where sitting still. i would have thought the sherman was a bigger threat than the infantry in the building.and the sherman had hit my panther 3 times and it kept ignoreing the sherman for the infantry in the building.this went on for 50 seconds my panther pumped at least 3 4 shots into the building .i though this was strange as most times the biggest threat is always targeted.my panther was buttoned would this have been the prob.i also have seen that if say two tanks are moveing toward me and my tank or bunker was targeting something else then it sees the tanks that my unit will jump from 1 target to the next as if it cant decide what tank to shot at .dont get me wrong i think this game is amazing.just thought i would point them out .cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eric Winter Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 One other possible solution to the sneaking anti tank team. Watch what season you are in. Foliage in forests in the winter season provides considerable less cover than it does in the summer. So that forest with leaves in the summer becomes less dense with leaves in the winter (less cover). Enjoy Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasToast Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 One more thought - scattered trees over much less cover/concealment than woods. I generally have no trouble sneaking the AT team up through woods, but when I send them into scattered trees they often come running back out shortly afterward (those that can still run). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColumbusOHGamer Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Kraut - Just a thought...were the PzIV's buttoned up? I find that if a tank is buttoned up, they'll run right past an enemy tank because they can't see it. Just because they're both in LOS doesn't mean they'll see it. COG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ColumbusOHGamer: Kraut - Just a thought...were the PzIV's buttoned up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's actually one of my favorite uses of light arty. Force the panzers to button up by peppering them with 60mm,81mm or even the 105mm, then smack 'em with bazookas and hidden AT guns. I've used this to good effect in one of the 'delay' operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 23, 2000 Author Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ColumbusOHGamer: Kraut - Just a thought...were the PzIV's buttoned up? I find that if a tank is buttoned up, they'll run right past an enemy tank because they can't see it. Just because they're both in LOS doesn't mean they'll see it. COG <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> After a few seconds into the turn they wee buttoned. This however is definitely not the cause since they would have seen the tank for sure after a few seconds. I've had several bottoned tanks, missing the commander, spot unbottoned enemy tanks at over 400 meters through scattered trees. The enemy didn't spot my tanks until my tanks fired. So having an unbottoned tank doesn't seem to make much of a difference in a tank vs. tank role. At least not in my experience. MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Kraut try some Hotseating (u play both sides) to experiment with crawling and sneaking onto tanks with different experience levels. can be very revealing ------------------ Check out my CM mods, Music and artwork www.geocities.com/coolcolj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Hey Kraut, Crawling is good for both cover and not being spotted. However, if the unit has already been spotted the spotting bonus is obviously not going to happen. As for the LOS thing, it is hard to say what happened. I honestly think it was a combo of various different factors that led to what you saw happen. Buttoned up tanks have a decent chance of not spotting anything, especially if they are engaged in activity and/or not facing the threat are especially likely to miss out on something. It is, however, something we will keep an eye on. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 24, 2000 Author Share Posted June 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Hey Kraut, Crawling is good for both cover and not being spotted. However, if the unit has already been spotted the spotting bonus is obviously not going to happen. As for the LOS thing, it is hard to say what happened. I honestly think it was a combo of various different factors that led to what you saw happen. Buttoned up tanks have a decent chance of not spotting anything, especially if they are engaged in activity and/or not facing the threat are especially likely to miss out on something. It is, however, something we will keep an eye on. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Keeping an eye on something is always good ... I defeinitely think there is something wrong with the area target command. Maybe somewhere deep in the code there is a line that got misplaced or a function was not called? So, when my units are shooting at a house and a enemy appears, they don't give a rats butt, because shooting at the rubble is a whole lot more fun. At least until the enemy decides to end the party ... hah! If you scan the board there is another thread somewhere talking about this same problem. MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 24, 2000 Author Share Posted June 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CoolColJ: Kraut try some Hotseating (u play both sides) to experiment with crawling and sneaking onto tanks with different experience levels. can be very revealing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Genius! lol ... Hey, shouldn't you be working on your tweaked textures man. Get to work lazy punk! MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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