Armor tactics for morons

[weasel]

As will shortly become apparent, I am not a grognard. I am perhaps the anti-grognard. Thus I have no idea what realistic WWII armor tactics are, and if CM is in some way lacking here.

But playing as the Americans in the gold demo CA mission, I find the only tactic which allows my Shermans to survive even a few moments against the StuGs is the blind charge: ignore everything, run straight at them as fast as possible, firing all the way. Attempting to find a hull-down spot, dig in, and exchange fire is a death warrant. Only if I can get the Shermans to close range do they stand a chance, and the only way to get there is to charge blindly.

Now, this might be a historically accurate result, but it sure seems weird to me.

So first, am I just insane? Is there another tactic which works? Or is this really how it was?

Second, as a WWII moron, is there some resource which will enable me to make reasonable guesses at proper armor tactics other than trial and error? In other words, if I know that I have a Sherman vs. a StuG, how do I determine the proper range to engage, what my changes of surviving a shot from various angles is, etc? Answers in the context of the game are fine: historical accuracy is of secondary interest to me.

[von Lucke]

For a good historical primer on armor tactics, try here:

http://www.uwm.edu/~jpipes/pnzfwd.html

"30 lessons of armored combat at platoon and company level".

[Guest tom w]

Some of the answer to your question can be had by starting up a game (pick Chance Encounter) or scenario and opening the game on the "HotSeat" with you playing both sides.

Now you can select a StuG or a Sherman in the game and hit the return key (or enter, I think on a PC) and pull up some info to look at there.

So what is there to see...

Well a few things, the info window shows the thickness of armour the tanks gun is supposed to be able to penetrate at various ranges....

and then you can see the various armour thickness of the different parts of your AFV

it will also show the top speed which in the case of those Hellcats in LD is very handy

if you compare both the StuG's and the Sherman's capabilities with regard to Armour thicknesses and the penetration ability of the the AFV's main gun then you can come to your own conclusions as to how to do it.

The StuG's as Anti Tank guns had plenty of frontal armour and not so much on the sides so out manouvreing them and trying to get a flank shot is a very good idea, but that could be said for just about any tank battle I suppose.

Get to know the info contained in the info window, when you select a tank and hit return, there is plenty of good details there that will help you determine tank fighting tactics.

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by tom w (edited 05-17-2000).]

[weasel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von Lucke:

http://www.uwm.edu/~jpipes/pnzfwd.html

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting! I seem to have re-learned rule 10: "When antitank weapons are encountered at close range, stopping is suicide. Only immediate attack at the highest speed with

every weapon firing will have success and reduce losses."

[Renaud]

typically people have more of a problem trying to keep their stugs alive. It's hard to get the stugs hull down sometimes. You might try a slow advance with 3-4 shermans close by each other so when one is seen they all see the enemy stug at the same time...so you get 3-4 vs 1. Also remember to keep them unbuttoned as this dramatically affects spotting enemy tanks before they spot you. One good tactic is to move 3-4 shermans up the road quick and they left up the hill till they are right up against the woods...then have them watch laterally across the map from behind the woods. Be sure and carry some infantry along to get in the woods and ambush any german infantry that come sneaking through the woods to get your tanks.

-ren

[This message has been edited by Renaud (edited 05-17-2000).]

[Guest JonS]

Weasel, if you fancy a bit of reading, this site might help:

http://etloh.8m.com/strategy.html

Regards

Jon

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Ubique

[Guest Mirage2k]

***Spoiler, I guess*** (If you haven't played CM)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>typically people have more of a problem trying to keep their stugs alive. It's hard to get the stugs hull down sometimes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've found a good way to negate the Amis armor advantage is to pull all of your StuGs around to your left flank, and position them on the slight rise on the left (from your map edge) side of the church. Typically you can take the Shermans on one or two at a time from there, as well as shell any mortar teams setting up on the hill across the road.

-Andrew

Survivor: AP US History Exam AND AP Physics Exam

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hello Weasel,

Hey, don't feel so bad. We have heard from many experienced wargamers and WWII buffs that have had problems with tank tactics. I know when I first played this thing 2 years ago I found out an interesting thing or two that other games hadn't punished me for doing

The first thing you should do is classify the armored vehicles on the map into very simplistic categories and then take a rough guess about threat level. Clicking on the unit and hitting "Return" will give you some stats, the rest comes from experience. Here is how I would rate the matchup between the StuGs and Shermans from the US pov...

StuG - turretless, fantastic gun, can be knocked out easily from sides but not well from front.

Sherman - fast turret, decent gun, can be knocked out from all angles (one Sherman excepeted)

Then you make a conclusion. Mine is:

Sherman is dead meat if it gets into a 1:1 or even 2:1 shot swapping situation with a StuG.

So now that I have figured I am at a disadvantage in a shoot out, I look for ways of overcoming it. Take stock of more specific things, specific to the scenario especially, and see what you find on the "plus" side:

1. I outnumber my enemy (this may not be known, but generally is assumed if the other side is German).

2. Turret rotation speed is a huge plus vs. a turretless tank.

3. Flank shots are a nearly sure kill.

OK, now I combine the two and figure out a plan based on the map, current positions, other known battlefield tidbits (likely enemy infantry etc.). This is highly variable and is totally different if you already know what the Germans have for units. In other words, if it were a "blind" scenario I would do things one way, if it were a replay I would most likely do things a different way.

But overall the key is to leverage the turret speed and superior numbers. Leave a couple stationary at any one time, unbuttoned, with good LOS to the likely StuG locations. That way whenever a StuG pops up something is likely to shoot at it very quickly (gotta love turrets!). Hopefully you can then move around the others to get into safe flanking positions before the StuG manages to score a kill.

So this is pretty simple logic here. No real deep understanding of angles and penetrations needed. Just a rough sense of what is what. Instincts count for a lot more than detailed knowledge in any case. Sharpen up your instincts first, then flesh it out with details and experience after.

Steve

[Guest Germanboy]

I usually find that deploying the Shermans in a loose line along the north-south road is getting good results. You get interlocking fields of fire and usually can bring at least two guns to bear on any Stug sneaking up on you. They are also quite dispersed and in a position to support your infantry closely. Moving onto the south-western hill is usually a death-warrant to the Sherman. Just make sure you keep them far away from the woods - I have had Panzerschrecks killing my tanks at 170m distance. And be ready to reverse quickly if your opponent is close-assaulting you. On a small map like CE, I feel you have to treat the fight as combined arms, there is little point in having the tanks and the infantry operating independently of each other.

Word of caution - I tend to lose a lot of my Shermans, too. But I don't like tanks, so that's okay.

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Andreas

[Darwin]

I've had some successes with my shermans but then again perhaps it is merely a perception issue.

I dont expect for my shermans to do very well in a straight head on shootout as they are somewhat vulnerable.

What I am to suggest is nothing new, but just basic tactics. supress your enemy, use smoke and terrain to isolate enemy units and concentrate fire on them while exposing yourself to minimal return fire. there are lots of trees and hills in VoT giving ample places from which to hide from enemy threats while still being able to target threats to your infantry such as Hmg's or the mg bunkers.

Use your tanks to support your infantry and vice versa. You dont have to destroy all the enemy's emplacements oftentimes they are more easily avoided than confronted.

And finally play Pbem's and when you get your ass kicked pay attentiion to how they did it

Doh, sorry didn't realize this was CE specific.

[This message has been edited by Darwin (edited 05-17-2000).]

[jwright]

Greetings,

Here's a couple of tactics that might extend the life of your tanks.

* Renaud had an excellent point - Unbuttoned is a very useful state to be in, try to keep your tanks that way as much as possible. Be careful though, if your TC gets picked off you'll be permanently buttoned up!

* Fast Move - Don't be shy about getting your tanks up to advantageous firing positions by running them forward. Make sure they cover the most likely avenues of approach. In fact use this acroynm - OCOKA Observation, Cover & Concealment, Key Terrain Features, Avenues of Approach.

* Hull-down: Fast move to before the crest of a hill and hunt forward a little bit.

* Hiding! When you're outnumbered you're better off letting the infantry find out where the enemy tanks are and allowing you to manuever your tanks for a flank shot.

* Don't worry about range - you're tanks will start blazing away the moment they can.

* Ye olde Red Herring. Run tanks up one flank and hide them. Leave another off to the other side. Your goal is to wave the one tank at the enemy and lure them into range of the other two. Use woods, hills, building as a way of reducing their chance of being seen.

* Combined arms. Use machine guns, mortar fire to cause the enemy tanks to button up. Then make your move with your tanks from the flank. You should get the first round off unanswered.

* Know when to retreat! Usually it's too late (I've seen over five tanks knocked out in one minute during Move to Contact) once the action phase starts but always plan for a way out!

Summary: Get to firing positions which hide your tanks from view and provide a good firing position. Take your time engaging enemy forces, pick the time you want to attack.

Hope this helps!

John Wright

[Moon]

Here's one lesson which I have learned painfully over and over while playing CM (and still often am doing wrong):

you tanks are NOT recon vehicles. Do not put them into overview of a large area of the map, no matter how tempting. Restrict their field of view to a narrow arc, so that they cannot be engaged by more than one enemy target at once. Use your other assets to be the eyes for your tanks, and keep your armor out of view until you have identified the target. That is especially true with the vulnerable Shermans...

[Guest Pham]

This is OT, but just wanted to say you guys post the greatest links. Loved both the Panzer Tactics and Strategy Articles and hadn't seen them before.

Keep 'em coming.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Ooooh, Moon makes an excellent point (others did too, but this one is really good ). I can not tell you how many Shermans I have lost on that bit of wooded ridge on the right just before getting into town. Great place to spot enemy tanks you think? Sure, and great way to have two or three StuGs firing at you at one time too

The best way to deploy armor is to hold the stuff in more conservative positions until you have identified the threats and positions. This way you can have more options for moving and less for dying a surprised death. Once you really stick your armored foot out it is often very hard to change plans and make corrections.

Steve

[Moon]

Well, it was Steve that hammered this lesson home in the random PBEM game we played - I lost my only Sherman to one of his StuG's because I had used it as a big steel recon box instead of hiding it for an ambush. Lost the game, too, and have never ever anymore started a game with any of my armor in view of possible enemy positions

[Wolfe]

Fionn wrote a very good tank primer over in the Articles section at CMHQ:

http://combathq.thegamers.net/

(Movement to Contact: A Tank Platoon Tactics Primer)

Some older posts on this board:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002624.html

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/003618.html

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002927.html

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 05-17-2000).]

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

Here's one lesson which I have learned painfully over and over while playing CM (and still often am doing wrong):

you tanks are NOT recon vehicles. Do not put them into overview of a large area of the map, no matter how tempting. Restrict their field of view to a narrow arc, so that they cannot be engaged by more than one enemy target at once. Use your other assets to be the eyes for your tanks, and keep your armor out of view until you have identified the target. That is especially true with the vulnerable Shermans...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This game is entertaining on so many levels, I sometimes don't know where to begin. This sort of tactical/historical learning curve thing is one of the game's most intriguing aspects. Many people with a surface exposure to military history/wargaming, regard tanks as battlefield kings, invincible killing machines that only other, even 'higher rep' tanks can kill. This is, of course, lunacy. The truth is, depending on the circumstances, tanks are very expensive targets. When used properly, they can decimate the opposition. When used arogantly, they make for quite a cheery weenie roast. And this game models that wonderfully. In CE I've usually had much more trouble keeping my Stugs alive than my Shermans. In fact, in a couple of games as the Germans, it's been up to half-shattered infantry squads to knock out arrogant Shermans, that, in the later stages of the game, have come within reach. I remember one game in which my Panzerschrecks were either dead, or out of rockets, my Assault Guns were dead, or immobilized in a useless position (to this day, I don't know if that immobilized Stug caught an early artillery round, hit mud, or threw a track for reasons insufficiently explored, but the bloody thing was within feet of its jumping off point, and sitting there helpless), and the last Sherman came up to within 60 MMs! of the Church, and I had three badly shot-up, morale challenged infantry units there, all still with panzerfausts, and all targeted on that arrogant Sherman, who was sitting there blasting the daylights out of everything in sight. And I was literally sitting in front of the computer (probably scaring the fecal matter out of the neighbours) chanting "Get UP, Goddamnit! Fire! He's Right There! Kill Him, Kill Him! Oh for the love the great Moltke himself, get on your bloody feet and take him out!". And finally one squad rose to it's shaky knees, aimed, and put a rocket right into the swine, and torched him as well. It was a sublime moment.

Let me finish this somewhat pointless text (in that it provides no help to the original question, although that has been adequately addressed here already), by making a point that I wanted to make to another poster on the games AI: The beauty of CM, and the reason it is so worth having, is not because once you get your act together you can usually beat the AI, but for those moments even during a game when you are victorious in which everything narrows down to feverish, nail-biting intensity as you use everything you've got and it all comes together, whether you win or lose IN THAT MOMENT, rather than how you do in the game overall. After all, let's face it. The Allies won in Europe, won in most every battle against a flagging and nearing exhaustion Germany, and there was never any real chance they wouldn't win. "Combat Mission" nicely models the fact that the journey, rather than the destination, is all the point of play. Or, to misquote Shakespeare: "The plays the thing, in which I'll catch the conscience of the king..."

Gods, aren't I a long-winded and pontificating bastard? But I do truly love this game!

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After witnessing

exceptional bravery from

his Celtic mercenaries,

Alexander the Great

called them to him and

asked if there was

anything they feared.

They told him nothing,

except that the sky might

fall on their heads

[Seanachai]

Sorry, for some reason my software keeps double posting. I'll look into this!

[This message has been edited by Seanachai (edited 05-18-2000).]

[Jochen]

To Senachai:

I couldn´t have said it better! I love this game too!!!

To the tank-tactics:

At the start playing CE two of my shermans are positioned to the right of the street, watching along the street leading into the little town, and watching the area behing the town. Only one Sherman is going with the infantery along the street. The other two Shermans are going on the left flank with one platoon of inf.

Now guess what, after playing several times, i recognized, that the "watching Shermans" often had been taken out by the aproaching StuGs. The other Shermans, especially those on the left flank, standing behing the two houses at the wheatfields, did the job taking out the Stugs.

Now, i always try to play like a commander, who doesn´t know the scenario - but, outflanking works really great!

Jochen

[jwright]

Greetings,

Played Movement to Contact again last night as the Americans. I used four Shermans to Fast move a platoon to the Church (1st min forward, 2nd min Platoon gets into building) and then lined up all five Shermans behind the hill.

Next turn all five crested the hill as the same time and in 20sec knocked out all three Stugs! I merrily blew the rest of the German forces apart afterward. Only had 5 KIA (!).

Moral of the story: Speed, speed & introduce massive firepower at the same time (shock).

Regards,

John Wright

[DanE]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jwright:

Moral of the story: Speed, speed & introduce massive firepower at the same time (shock).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This statement is true of CE after having played it once. However, there may be a lot of shock involved using this approach all the time in blind games.

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Dan

[jgdpzr]

Great responses guys!

I think jwright and DanE bring out an excellent point, and that is there is no one best way to use armor. Sometimes a daring, balls-to-the-wall aggresive attack with massed armor is just what is needed. Other times, it could be suicidal, and a much more conservative, hiding/baiting/flanking approach is called for. Learning what the situation calls for is one of the greatest skills a commander can achieve. This was just how it was in WWII, and it is great that CM models this reality so well.

All this aside, I think your personal style as to how you prefer to support your armor with infantry also has a great bearing on tank tactics. In other words, some people almost exclusively use armor to support infantry, always letting infantry set the pace of any advance. In a scaled-down sense, I liken this to the Montgomery approach. On the other hand, an aggressive style, let's call it the Patton approach, may stress using armor to create an imbalance in the field, opening up various parts of the enemies defenses for exploitation. This is a higher risk/higher pay-off approach. I suppose each could have its merits, but in the end assessing the enemies defenses quickly and well or just plain luck will likely determine which approach is going to be most effective on a given field of battle.

[Guest tom w]

This is a GREAT thread

Thanks to all who have posted those great

links...

The full speed ahed theory with all the 5 Shermans in CE works well because we know what to expect, in that scenario. I think this balls out tactic should be used MUCH more conservatively in the Gold Release scenarios against a blind defence where such a hasty advance could lead to a quick encounter with many tanks or dug in anti tank guns.

Still this has become my fovourite thread..

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>