Mannheim Tanker Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 I've always liked using sharpshooters, but after my last PBEM, I'm hooked for good. I played the Germans in defense, and my opponent attacked with a solid combined arms force. It was on a map reminiscent of VoT (big valley, with blind spots behind some hills, little cover in the valley). I deployed 3 snipers 100-200m in front of my main line of resistance. One sniper had killed a spotter team by turn 2! The others killed nearly every TC shortly after each tank poked over the hill. I also managed to kill his other spotter at some point in the game (I never even knew this until the game had ended, but I suspected it due to his very light arty preps!). In short, I used them to great effect. Too bad that I pissed away my armor with half-assed tactics that would have made the Fuerer proud. My question: Is it gamey to send snipers that far forward? I've read that the Soviets commonly did this, but I'm not sure about the other nationalities. How do other players employ sharpshooters? This question has been asked before, but I thought I'd pose it again now that the game has been out for a while... Thanks! Blaze on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Not sure about historical deployment of snipers, but what you're describing sounds like a rational, non-gamey tactic to me. If I'm going to put some scouts out front, I might as well give them some teeth. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kollos Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Hey there, I dont find it gamey at all. In fact, they were used on me in a recent PBEM. Sniper team killed Arty spotter while he was in a jeep trying to get to a good LOS location. I dont think there is much to be gamey about at all. If it works on the map, then so be it. I look at all things that work against me and learn to prepare for them in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted August 30, 2000 Author Share Posted August 30, 2000 Thanks for the responses, guys. Hehe...like you said, even if someone uses a gamey tactic, they can often be defeated. A run up the edge of the map can be quickly crushed if the player ignores tactical moves and bounding overwatch. It's just not as fun defeating a gamey move as it is beating someone using "real" tactics. I just wanted to get a feeling if people though poking snipers deep into someone's rear was a gamey tactic. I like to use them as scouts by having them hide once in the rear - a single guy is hard to find in the woods! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Historically snipers were placed well in front of the MLR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Snipers were also used as stay behind harassment troops,though towards the end of the war German snipers may not have had much of a choice in the matter. ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 ITS TOTALLY GAMEY!!!!!!! Damn it, I lost both my Spotters (105 and 155) and my Firefly's TC. Just kidding. Paul, they were devasting. I did not feel that it was gamey at all. Although I have no idea how I would combat it in the future. Just imagine how much more I would have kicked your butt with that Arty coming down. ------------------ Jeff Newell TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Also, Where was that sniper? I would still love to see that screen shot. ------------------ Jeff Newell TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted August 30, 2000 Author Share Posted August 30, 2000 LOL! I don't give a rat's ass if you think it's gamey, Tankdawg, after witnessing your sturmcrew assaults The sniper that was really nailing your guys was front and center in the big concrete building, and in the smaller buildings surrounding it. He didn't stay put for long (sneaked around to new positions), which is probably why you never saw him. I'll send you some screen shots (tonight of tomorrow) to your work email if you want... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: My question: Is it gamey to send snipers that far forward? I've read that the Soviets commonly did this, but I'm not sure about the other nationalities. How do other players employ sharpshooters? This question has been asked before, but I thought I'd pose it again now that the game has been out for a while... Thanks! Blaze on!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IMO, that is not forward enough! In my experiance the snipers have been much farther forward than a couple hundred meters. Cav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Hey Mannheim Tanker, I resemble that remark! Er, I mean, resent. I saw your sniper twice, for 1 second each time. It just flashed on screen and then vanished. Kind of creepy. Anyone have any ideas how to combat this? ------------------ Jeff Newell TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Not normally a searchonaut, but I did start the thread: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum7/HTML/000041.html ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Thanks Ethan, If I ever do QBs again, I know what I am buying. ------------------ Jeff Newell TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Be careful to distinguish between snipers and sharpshooters. Read what Steve said here. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Your referencing of Steve's comments is a good thing to do, David, but regardless in this game scale, the "sniper/sharpshooter" aspect still gets all rolled into the existing sharpshooters of CM, for better or worse. And the fact that all manpower losses are taken at 1:1 makes the sniper role -- & its scale in application in CM -- very relevant to consider. Anyway, to MT's query about whether or not sending "snipers" forward is gamey, I don't think so either. These single-man shooters usually operated by themselves in their ability to infiltrate and to make the best use of existing cover. The cardinal rule of a sniper (though not necessarily of a sharpshooter working more closely with others) is "Don't get spotted while you shoot, if you can avoid doing so." This would mean that a true sniper would pass up tons of tempting targets (like the TC's or arty spotters) if he knew that shooting would get him spotted at the very time such a target comes into sight. It is on that note that for truly handling SNIPERS, the ASL game admittedly has a better system than CM in that the sniper can't be controlled but is rendered as an unpredictable gameplay event. Such as it was for snipers --- once they went off to find a perch, they were beyond the field commander's control in where they moved around and how they picked their targets. So if CM wanted to make its sharpshooters as realistic snipers, then I would say that a player with sniper units could only position these before the game's start. After that, he shouldn't be allowed to give them orders in movement or targeting. But here again, the sharpshooter/sniper demarcation is "fuzzy", and players will be players by nature -- they usually don't like having units in a game that they can't control. I guess it suffices for now in CM that 1) sharpshooters are fortunately not "1 shot, 1 kill" in absolute gameplay, and 2) the ammo load of the sharpshooter is pretty limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted August 30, 2000 Author Share Posted August 30, 2000 Good points, Spook. I've found that, aside from occasionally moving the sharpshooters (I made the distinction this time!), they are best left to their own devices. Perhaps it wouldn't be too difficult to allow the TacAI to move them around on their own, much as the TacAI (often) backs vehicles out of the line of fire when outgunned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Brizee Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 I was doing A Walk in Paris PBEM and I had my sharpshooter kill two Frenchmen with one bullet. It was pretty neat. I also am doing a PBEM in the Nijmegen battle. I have a sharpshooter with 31 kills!!!! He only used 5 shots total! First shot- Fired at a tank and buttoned it up. Second shot-Fired at a tank and killed the commander 3rd-shot- shot the guy out of an assault boat and killed everyone inside it when it sank. Or maybe he popped a whole in it or whatnot, but he sure made that boat go away. Did the same thing for the next two shots until he finally died from arty. He was very impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von Brizee: I also am doing a PBEM in the Nijmegen battle. I have a sharpshooter with 31 kills!!!! He only used 5 shots total! First shot- Fired at a tank and buttoned it up. Second shot-Fired at a tank and killed the commander 3rd-shot- shot the guy out of an assault boat and killed everyone inside it when it sank. Or maybe he popped a whole in it or whatnot, but he sure made that boat go away. Did the same thing for the next two shots until he finally died from arty. He was very impressive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh MAN, von B, you've GOT to run that by Madmatt and get that guy into CMHQ's "Hero's Corner." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 It reminds me of a campaign I played against a friend of mine in Close Combat II. He had a german sniper named "Vugahol" (I still remember his name because he was so infamous). Anyways, it would've been a real hit to German morale if I could've wasted old Vugahol but he was just too slippery. I'm sure he logged maybe only one or two kills in his entire career but man, I sure would've liked to have nailed that prick. It's refreshing to see that sharpshooters are so much more effective in CM. Hawkeye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Brizee Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 In CC2, snipers were not snipers, but barenuckle brawlers. I was playing a CC2 Grand Campaign against my friend, and in the Schjindel area I had my Scharfschutze named Vogel saving the day for me every time. When the Amis got within 20 meters of him, he would unload on them with his semi-auto rifle and kill a few. When that was empty, it was slicin' time. I would just have him rush whole squads with his knife and massacre them. I won a battle that might have saved the whole campaign for me with him. My defense line was falling apart but I had Vogel zipping around wasting Americans left and right. My opponent couldn't keep track of where he was! All is quiet...... Suddenly.... Vogel charges out of the street into a house and quicklly slits the throats of a 30 cal MG team. Quiet again. 60mm mortar team is waiting for orders. Suddenly.. Vogel bursts out of the bocage and before they can react, they are all dead by his knife. Quiet again... A shattered 2 man rifle team is taking shelter in a house from my MG42. Vogel rushes in and kills the Sarge in an instant. The cowardly private puts his hands up and screams "Don't shoot!" but Vogel is too quick, and knifes him anyway. No time for prisoners....... And that's how the whole CAMPAIGN went. During that battle alone, Vogel killed 27 soldiers. Several surrendered to him, but he either knifed them or let them go bugger off to the rear. During the 8 days of that campaign, Vogel killed 86 American and British soldiers, along with an open topped Achilles Tank Destroyer. What a guy. He finally was killed on the ninth day, when he rushed a Rifle Squad and they got the better of him in hand to hand combat. Vogel was wounded 12 times before he died. If I can dig deep I can find a screenshot of that little bastard from 2 years ago Sniff sniff They don't make em like they used to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 LOL! Von Brizee! That's hilarious! I'd forgotten how effective snipers were at hand to hand in cc2! My buddy and I would always joke about it along the lines of: "fortunately all my snipers are extensively trained in several forms of martial arts and hand to hand combat." I can remember several instances where entire rifle teams were lost charging into a building occupied by a single sniper. You'd sit there and grit your teeth while you listening to the little fist fighting noises and watch the rifle soldiers dying one by one. They really were amazing at hand to hand! Able to take on 6+ guys at once and come out on top! Send me a copy of that screenshot if you still have it. Hawkeye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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