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Bugger Stein Member

Bugger Stein

Posted
Posted

seriously, just using my immature humor to get this silly subject of my mind. sorry if I offended anyone, that was never my intention.

couldn´t help laughing at the tickle-me -hitler (actually, wouldn´t be surprised if a toycompany picked up that sick idea, and as a satire of the toyindustry and commercial for kids it actually works quite well, on me anyway )commercial sans Jochen or a<nyones grandparents. Well, this isn´t the right forum for pushing "jokes" to the limit. And I can understand in hindsight (5 minutes) that satire really oughtn´t be directed towards person, who we in a way owe democracy to, I can understand if anyone gets offended.

Serously,

I´m sorry

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Fionn Senior Member

Fionn

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"Frankly you should all try and read into the meaning of my post before posting your incoherent crap... If that dont work,,, take an overdose of sleeping pills and dont bother me again..."

Or you could just Zyklon B us all to death in memory of the great times that were had from 1939 to 1945.

Jochen,

Having someone be able to realistically evaluate German forces ( as Goanna did) is the hallmark of a RATIONAL mind. Being unable to understand that someone could prefer to play as the Germans whilst still having issues with certain of ther units is pretty pathetic.

I play mostly as the Germans and yet I'm quite able to say that certain American weapons were superior etc. According to your logic this would make me some sort of traitor as near as I can figure. Seriously, open your mind or smoke some dope or something so that whatever plans you come up with you can't properly execute them. You seriously make me believe you'd have had great fun riding around villages engaging in pacification.

And as for the hurtful comment about your grandad. Jochen, IF he was in Florian Geyer (as you say he was) then any references to him shooting civies etc en masse is quite probably extremely accurate. As near as I can see all Goanna ( and others did) was expose some home truths to you about that division. Now, are you seriously going to say that if someone recognises that the Germans could commit brutalities that this is somehow incompatible with playing them in a GAME ?

A corollary to this would seem to be that ANYONE who plays the Germans in a wargame should deny they carried out atrocities. That's just plain insane if that's your viewpoint.

And in conclusion " And it is not me who gets these conflicts started..."

Aye, telling people you want to recreate the Malmedy massacre isn't in the least bit provocative is it?

Revelling in Nazi glory etc to the exclusion of reality isn't provocative is it?

Hmm, ok, time for me to stop.. Seriously Jochen MODERATE your posting or you're just going to keep annoying people whenever you show your blind hero-worship side.

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tss Senior Member

tss

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Fionn wrote:

And as for the hurtful comment about your grandad. Jochen, IF he was in Florian Geyer (as you say he was) then any references to him shooting civies etc en masse is quite probably extremely accurate.

One of my relatives fought in the Finnish Civil War (he was either my granddad's uncle or my grandmother's father, I'm not sure which one) with the White Guard. It was a personal shock when I realized that he probably took part in shooting surrendered Reds. I got over it.

- Tommi

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tss Senior Member

tss

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marcusm wrote:

Yes give me Finns any day not just sissi but any Finn.

Take some unit of the 23rd Division and you may want to choose again. It hurts me much to admit it but we had our share of not-so-good units.

Note: the 23rd Division was a poorly trained reinforcement division that pretty much crystallized when the Red Army attacked its positions in late February '40.

Colonel Wolf H. Halsti who served in the neighbouring 5th Division had many interesting comments about them on his "Talvisodan päiväkirja", but they are mostly unprintable.

One printable comment came from a 5th Division batallion commander whose positions were outflanked when the defence of the 23rd Division was crushed: "The Russkies are attacking outside of sector. Send me a referee."

- Tommi

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tss Senior Member

tss

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marcusm wrote:

That was a nickname (not sissy mind you).

Based on the famous Finnish SISU.

I'm not so sure on that. Both words have been used for quite a long time and may well be related but etymology is not my strongest field so I can't say for sure. I think (but may be wrong) that "sissi" meant originally a forester.

Do you have any info site with info on individual Finnish regiments during WW2? I am looking for a particular one.

I'm not aware of any. Which regiment are you interested in?

- Tommi

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tss Senior Member

tss

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I wrote:

I'm not so sure on that. Both words have been used for quite a long time ...

It just came to me that maybe I should also explain the meanings of those words.

In current usage "sissi" means a guerilla fighter. During WWII the word was mostly used on patrolmen who spent a lot of time behind Soviet lines doing reconnaisance and ambushing supply columns but also jääkäri companies of regular army units were sometimes called sissis, in particular those companies that acted as fire-brigades in the forest areas.

This meaning for the word has been in use at least since the beginning of 18th century when sissi leaders Tapani Löfving and Pieteri Långström harrassed Russians during the "Great Hatred". (Note that, AFAIK, they both had Swedish father and Finnish mother).

The word "sisu" is quite difficult to translate to English. Sisu is a combination of courage, determination, and bloody stubborness that gets a man to attack a bear with only a knife or dig through a rock of grey granite when it would be easier to just pass it. It is usually used in a positive sense but it usually includes a small quantity of stupidity.

The two most exceptional sissis of WWII were Mikko Pöllä and Onni Määttänen who both received Mannerheim's Crosses. Määttänen spent a total of 171 days behind Soviet lines and Pöllä 164. Pöllä's longest patrol lasted for 46 days.

- Tommi

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RetardedKeydet Junior Member

RetardedKeydet

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Heheh I just finished some verbal jousting about the Third Reich and how some people here are living in a fantasy. Before I read this I just got through a long series of posts on what is "gamey" or not. I think most of the people who post in this forum are a little if not very delusional. When one of you (us if I include myself as one of the afflicted) starts calling another delusional it reminds me of some variation on "the blind leading the blind" well anyway that's my two cents.

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Moriarty Senior Member

Moriarty

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JOCHEN PEIPER:

ALL i was saying is that he seems to like Germans all of a sudden...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jochen, I can absolutely vouch for the fact that Goanna prefers the Germans when playing CM. We've played a number of games now—more than 5 but less than 50—and he always has opted for the Germans. So that is nothing new.

I don't know about the rest but I have found him to be a stand-up guy. Perhaps, as often happens with e-mail or any other electronic messaging, you read something in between the lines that really was not there.

Just my 2 cents.

------------------

"Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" — Oddball

"Crap." — Moriarty

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Aussie Smith Senior Member

Aussie Smith

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Hey Folks

Lets lighten up a bit shall we - I'm sure we all misconstrue what each other means from time to time and without naming names lets just get back to being mature wargamers and discuss the issues on this forum in the spirit they were intended - friendly banter/active discussion.

In the spirit of this thread I admit to favouring the Germans but I think it more in the typical Australian tradition of supporting the underdog.

That said I believe it was Patton who said "Give me German Soldiers, American Drive and British tenacity and I will drive over Russia in 6 months"

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Moriarty Senior Member

Moriarty

Posted
Posted

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JOCHEN PEIPER:

And it is not me who gets these conflicts started...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You most certainly did in this instance.

------------------

"Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" — Oddball

"Crap." — Moriarty

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Colin Senior Member

Colin

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I enjoy a good laugh before I go to bed.

I for one am tired of this. The way I see it you have 3 acceptable choices: 1. Post in a civil manner 2. Continue posting in the same fashion and get banned and everyone else will continue their lives happily without having to put up with this. 3. Post elsewhere.

Please don't even bother saying anything like 'You don't have to read this forum if you don't like it'. I have been here for well over a year and never had to put up with anything this annoying. And we all thought Captain Manieri was awful.

------------------

And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh.

-Steve

My website!

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Simon Fox Senior Member

Simon Fox

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Posted

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You are a SHAME and a NUISANCE to every German on this board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't think you're getting out of it that easily. You've got him now and we definitely don't want him after this lot.

------------------

"More German prisoners were now arriving. There were well over 150 of them, with a lot more yet to be brought in. I watched them sitting in the dust, knowing they must have been in a state of shock. This was something that had never happened before. They couldn't bring themselves to admit that this was their first defeat of the war. Not only that, but it was suffered at the hands of Australian infantrymen, who were vastly outnumbered and fighting their first battle of the war."

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tss Senior Member

tss

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marcusm wrote:

The regiment I'm looking for is JR35 (Karjalan jääkäri ryk.) located around Ladoga during the war.

I didn't have just about anything about that regiment in my bookshelf so I went to library. I found an outline of its operations in 1941 (not much details and the later years were on loan):

Commanders:

JR35: Lt.Col. L. Ruotsalo

I/JR35: Maj. F. Jansson

II/JR35: Capt. Ryynänen

III/JR35: Capt. Petramaa

The regiment was thrown around and in 1941 it fought with three different divisions and one detachment. It belonged to the 1st Division (commanded by Paalu) but it was later loaned first to 11th Division (Heiskanen?), then to the 4th Division, next to Group O (Oinonen), and finally to the 4th Division again.

Here's a short list of places and battles where the regiment participated (the list is not complete but it gives quite clear picture on the route).

22.7.-6.8. Guarding the flank of 1st Division at Vieljärvi (North of Ladoga).

7.8. Repulsed a Soviet counterattack at Perjärvi (I and II batallions).

7.8. I/JR35 captured Hiisijärvi and Ivaselkä villages.

10.8. A Soviet counter attack almost encircled parts of I batallion, it retreated to a stream line at South-end of Perjärvi.

12.-13.8. Heavy Soviet counter attacks repulsed.

1.9. II/JR35 supported the attack of JR60 and advanced to Kotsuura where it was left on defence.

2.9. II and III batallions were sent to the 11th Division, I batallion guarded flanks of JR60.

4.9. II/JR35 manned a stream line at Kutismanjoki. (I think that the scene in the Unknown Soldier where they cross a river happened here, though JR8 (Linna's regiment) didn't really use boats but a bridge. I may be wrong, though)

5.9. I/JR35 relieved a batallion of JR8 that was guarding an encirclement. I believe (but I'm not 100% certain) that this encirclement was the infamous "****ed-up encirclement" that was mentioned in passing in the Unknown Soldier (book). The encirclement got its name after a nasty event where a young Gypsy boy killed and robbed at least two men of his company who had won a lot of money in a Blackjack game. The Gypsy then defected to the Soviets but run back the next day only to be mercilessly shot by friends of the men he had killed.

6.9. The encircled Soviets tried to break out but were destroyed.

13.9. The Regiment was attached to the 4th Division.

17.9. I/JR35 was employed to guard another encirclement that was created by JR26.

18.9. The regiment was attached to the Group O and sent to Onkamus.

20.-22.9. The regiment attacked at Neukkilampi

23.9. Repulsed a heavy counter attack.

24.-28.9. Advanced under heavy combat to Olkkoila-Muujärvi - road to block Soviet supply and withdrawal routes.

2.10. Blocked the road at Kenjakki. I/JR35 tried to attack West towards Olkkoila but was repulsed and the other batallions attacked East.

8.-11.10. Attacked at Nivajoki.

13.10. Attacked to Suununjoki.

20.-24.10 Heavy battles at Juotjärvi, slow advance towards Mäntyselkä. Here the elite Soviet 126th Regiment was encircled between JR35 and JR26 and lost all its heavy equipment. The 126th Regiment was commanded by a Finnish communist Valter Valli and 40% of its men were Finns, Karelians, Ingrians, or from Vepsä. That is, they had Finnish roots. After the war Valli claimed that the only reason why he lost his heavy equipment was because his division commander ordered him to hold (and later counter attack at) Mäntyselkä at all costs. The 126th regiment was one of the toughest Soviet units in Karelia. One reason for this was that a lot of the COs and NCOs were renegade Finns who would face the firing squad if captured.

1.-2.11. Was repulsed when trying to advance to Tsopina road.

3.-5.11. Tried to outflank the defences but was driven back when a Soviet unit managed to outflank the flanking maneuver.

6.11. Was transferred to army corps reserve. Also committed a few diversionary attacks to distract Soviets.

15.11-2.12. Took a part in the Karhumäki operation. The regiment advanced under combat in the left flank of the attack group. The regiment walked a large half circle and ended North East of Karhumäki. At this time the regiment was once again with the 4th Division.

5.12. Started to advance towards Hiisjärvi and repulsed a counter attack.

6.12. Reached the Murmansk railroad where the attack was stopped.

I don't have data on the regiment's casualties.

Roughly, the regiment's war path started near the old border a little South of Hyrsylä. From there they advanced towards Lake Onega, passed it from the West, and ended up North of it blocking the Murmansk railway.

- Tommi

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