Knocking out immobilized tanks

[GhostAgent]

I believe it should be easier to knock out an immobilized tank when infantry are near. This would simulate the idea of droping a grenade down the hatch or gun or something of that sort.

I had two squads around a german tank destroyer (no rotating turret) and it took 2 stuart shells, 2 rifle grenades, and at least 10 infantry grenades and still was not knocked out or abandoned. I would think the infantry would find some way to take it out if its just stuck there.

Mabey something can be done? I understand if this situation is too rare there is no point in fixing it, but has a similar situation happened to anyone else?

[The Commissar]

You must remember, there is that whole issue of getting the hatch open.

A grenade placed on the hatch won't do much, I think. Maybe something up the exhaust pipe?

Oh yeah, and you should have moved your Stuarts to the rear of this tank as close as possible. Unless this assault gun of yours was an Uber-tank like a JagtTiger or JagdPanther, the Stuart's shell would surely penetrate.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[I/O Error]

Many, if not most, tanks have a lock on the hatch. A tank destroyer that KNOWS there are infantry around and their vehicle is stuck is for DAMN sure going to lock the hatch!

Unless the infantry happened to be carrying a blowtorch, ( ) That hatch is not moving anytime soon!

Fortunately, most crews are smart enough to either run off or surrender in short order. Nobody REALLY relishes the idea of being stuck in a metal coffin while explosions go off outside!

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Honor, Duty, Courage.

Valhalla awaits you, honorable warrior...

[GhostAgent]

Actually, those stuarts of mine shot the tank earlier (and then were destroyed before my men got close). I was hoping that the hits might have caused light damage to the hull which might make it easier for small explosives to knock the tank out.

And yea, I think after awhile the men inside the tank should surrender. If your the only friendly unit around, and you cant move your pretty much as good as dead.

It's kinda funny because I just played another game and the same thing happend. Although it was a panzer IV and not a tank destroyer. Also, I was only able to shoot grenades at it. The second grenade hit imoblized it and I sent what I had left of two platoons behind the tank but with only 2 turns left in the game my infantry couldn't do much. (To bad my piats got knocked out earlier, I'll have to remember to keep one back.)

[I/O Error]

Yeah, in your case the situation is much more difficult. A Tank Destroyer, once immobilized, is totally defenseless besides for about 20 degrees.

Now a TANK, on the other hand, gets turned into a pillbox. eeek! THOSE guys are a lot LESS likely to run off.

[Bastables]

It is easier to knock out immobilised Veh, because they cannot drive off and laugh at the impudent infantries Lilliputian antics.

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From the jshandorf

"Why don't we compare reality to the game like Bastables likes to do all the time?"

Mr T's reply

"Don't touch me FOO!"

"Yes that's right Jerry, RUN, Run for your little lives because Tommy's gotten close enough to assault mhahahahah."

Nizam al-Mulk, (Order of the realm) In speaking of his superb disregard of maneuver warfare, in the destruction of OGSF hamsters who then carried on to flee the battle in their own notion of maneuver warfare. Tally HO!

[Thermopylae]

SMG stuck in the driver slit? Infantry smoke grenade or standard up the exhaust? Grenade bundle rolled under the tank? Grenade on the turret ring? Grenade thrugh the driver slit? Grenade bundle on the top armor? (hey, if those 60mm mortars have the explosive capacity to kill a panther... )

[Marc E. Sicard]

From a novel I read, "Soldiers of '44", by William P. McGivern: "...he remembered... a demonstration he had once witnessed at Fort Benning: one round from an M-1 rifle fired into a Sherman had made nine hundred and forty separate gashes against the white paint on the inside of the tank."

I can't guarantee the accuracy of the statement, but I sure wouldn't want to be the one inside the Sherman to test it! (not that it matters much for a Sherman, of course. A good old potato masher under the belly is more than enough for a catastrophic explosion! )

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"We'll fight you 'till Hell freezes over. Then we'll fight you on the ice."

[The Commissar]

Thermo,

Some of your suggestions are valid and did indeed work, but I certaintly know that the Driver's slit could be closed from the inside, and was not large enough to fit a grenade through (I think).

I think that a 60mm is considerably more powerful then a hand grenade, too.

One must also consider that the infantry, some not very educated in tank-busting antics, might not have known the weaknesses of such a beast.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Supertanker]

How big of a sample are you basing your conclusions upon? In my anecdotal experience, immobilized vehicles are usually easy pickings. When you see the little grenades being tossed at the tank by your men, that is the representation of the close-assault you envision.

Some examples of pushover immobilized vehicles: I once used artillery to immobilize a StuG in the middle of a snowy field. It was a good 150m from any cover, in snow, within the field of fire of at least three MG42s and a platoon of infantry. It was going to be a tough nut to crack, but it had to die so I could manuever safely on my right flank. While I pondered this, the continuing barrage apparently convinced the crew that they had other plans, and they bailed before the end of the turn. Problem solved.

Another time, I immobilized a Tiger (at the cost of a Jumbo 76, dang it). I didn't have much left to risk, so I ran a single veteran squad out to it. They knocked it out on the first try, while under fire from another Tiger that I had not yet seen. Seven of them survived the rout back to the woods.

[GhostAgent]

Mabey there was something wrong with the grenade damage calculation with that tank destroyer I faced.

Supertanker, did your squad take out that Tiger with regular grenades?

Perhaps my men where too far? (They WERE throwing grenades though.) Supposing they had satchel charges, how close do you have to be to use them?

[CRSutton]

Some times they are tougher than others. I had one game where I drove my Stuart up to the rear of a Tiger and pumped about a dozen shots into it without effect. Needless to say my armpits began to give off the stench of fear as I watched the turret slowly rotate. The end result was not pretty.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GhostAgent:

Perhaps my men where too far? (They WERE throwing grenades though.) Supposing they had satchel charges, how close do you have to be to use them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Demo charges are great but try to get within 20m or so.

[Supertanker]

They were just using regular grenades, and I figure they got lucky. Like I said, the grenade animation is supposed to represent the various things infantry can do to try and pry open a tank & get the juicy bits inside. I don't know how it is actually calculated, but there is probably some simple chance for them to knock out the vehicle each turn. I've had crews bail into the arms of infantry, too, usually surrendering or immediately being killed.

Demo charges are nice, especially dropped from buildings

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"Late evening turned to early morning as you sat with fists tightly gripped and thumb poised, anxiously awaiting the next cartridge of goodness. The hardcore gamer was born from nights such as these. Show your 'Roots.'" - The description of the Atari 2600 shirt on game-skins.com

[Splinty]

Didn't the US have thermite grenades in WWII?

If they did it would simply a matter of setting the grenade on top of the turret or fuel and getting away. Those babies heat up to 2000 Degrees Farenhite,more than enough to drop through the top and set off the ammo inside.

[Forever Babra]

One of the most appalling things I've ever seen (from a military standpoint) was the utter ease with which the police were able to open the hatch on the M60 hijacked by the whacko and made famous on "America's Scariest Police Chases" or some such FOX offering.

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Scarred on a hundred fields before

Naked and starved and travel-sore

Each man a tiger hunted;

They stood at bay as brave as Huns

The last of the Old South's splendid sons

Flanked by ten thousand shotted guns

And by ten thousand fronted

[Dschugaschwili]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Supertanker:

Some examples of pushover immobilized vehicles: I once used artillery to immobilize a StuG in the middle of a snowy field. It was a good 150m from any cover, in snow, within the field of fire of at least three MG42s and a platoon of infantry. It was going to be a tough nut to crack, but it had to die so I could manuever safely on my right flank. While I pondered this, the continuing barrage apparently convinced the crew that they had other plans, and they bailed before the end of the turn. Problem solved.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I never really understood why crews abandon tanks during an arty barrage called down on them. Even if they are immobilized, have their gun damaged, and are out of ammo for their MGs, I'd much rather be inside the tank instead of outside in the open with all those explosions going off all around.

Or is it really safer to be outside in such situations?

Dschugaschwili

[Splinty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

Well, I never really understood why crews abandon tanks during an arty barrage called down on them. Even if they are immobilized, have their gun damaged, and are out of ammo for their MGs, I'd much rather be inside the tank instead of outside in the open with all those explosions going off all around

Or is it really safer to be outside in such situations? :confused:

Dschugaschwili<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, absolutely not. The shrapnel would cut the crew to pieces. Although I could see a claustrophobic crewman panicking and running he wouldn't last a minute.

[This message has been edited by Splinty (edited 12-13-2000).]

[Guest wwb_99]

Playing against the AI last night, I had a squad of infantry toss a grenade at a Panther. The grenade bounced off the tank, floated through the air and tree-bursted over the infantry. Luckily, there were no casualties.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Polar]

Speaking of open field -vs- staying in the tank... I think the real questions for the crewman are "Do I want to stay here and certainly die... as I'm not going anywhere." or "Do I want to risk it and make a dash back to safety."

Most would have chosen #1 I'm sure... that plus I think that the scale is tips strongly in favor of death-by-explosion when weighed against death-in-a-burning-tank. Not to mention the wounds of the former are easier to deal with should you only be "fortunate" enough to survive.

Joe

[Head Mahone]

Originally posted by GhostAgent:

I believe it should be easier to knock out an immobilized tank when infantry are near. This would simulate the idea of droping a grenade down the hatch or gun or something of that sort.

I had two squads around a german tank destroyer (no rotating turret) and it took 2 stuart shells, 2 rifle grenades, and at least 10 infantry grenades and still was not knocked out or abandoned. I would think the infantry would find some way to take it out if its just stuck there.

GhostAgent,

I find knocking out tanks with infantry alone can be quite easy, depending on the situation. Once in heavy fog my troops stumbled upon a STUG as they ran across an open field for cover. After horrible strafing and grenade launches from the tank commander my men recovered. In the next turn they immobilized the STUG, and grenaded it to death before my bazooka unit could come to the rescue. I've had this kind of luck nearly every time my infantry closes in on enemy armor.

I think you need to do more research with anti-armor attacks, before blowing the whistle that something is wrong.

-Head

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"No man ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

-General George S. Patton, Jr.

[GhostAgent]

How then was it so easy for your men to take out that tank? I was only wondering if anyone else had this problem. However, chances are it's just my luck... Next time I run into this problem, I will try something new out and move my men as close as possible (practically on the tank) and see what happens.

I am also wondering if the infantry grenades used in WW2 were the same from D-Day to the end of the war.

As for thermite grenades... I think they were special issue only or a couple per platoon or something. (I'm reelly not sure, but I'm sure someone here does...) Mabey they left them out because they weren't used on a wide scale or mabey they would unbalence the game like white phospherous shells would.

[Polar]

On Thermite grenades: They were available, but yes, they were special forces equipment.

The Rangers used then to take out artillery on D-Day... those things wreak havoc when dropped down a cannon barrel.

I would guess that they were too expensive for that rare chance that an infantry squad would have a real chance to use them.

THere are many cheaper ways of cracking a tank when you don't care in anyone else hears it.

Joe

[I/O Error]

One of the reasons a tank crew would run from their tank is the certain knowledge they have that they WILL die shortly.

Their fears:

1.) Tank explodes

2.) Bigger enemy comes along

3.) Artillery blows up the tank (similar to #1)

4.) They KNOW that artillery means the enemy is coming in large numbers. Nobody IRL wastes artillery, and if they're being shelled, that means SOME big boy is on the way.

Safer course of action would probably be to wait for a lull in the artillery and then run. If they waited until the artillery STOPPED, they would probably escape too late to prevent being overrun.

These thoughts would be FOREMOST in the crews' mind, I figure.

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Honor, Duty, Courage.

Valhalla awaits you, honorable warrior...

[Chupacabra]

I find that with the beta patch, it is considerably easier to knock out tanks with infantry - mobility or immobility not withstanding.

In a PBEM game recently, my opponent ran a platoon against a mobile Sherman and successfully close assaulted it. About five turns later I did the same to one of his Lynxes. In both cases the assaulting platoon had to run a not-inconsiderable distance to the tank.

It also seems that infantry are more likely to use their organic LATW in the beta patch, which is, IMO, A Good Thing.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.