A bit off-tpoic....a bit

[Rick]

Haven't heard of that one. I wonder, how hard is it to find an Aussie movie in the US other than the original Mad Max?

[Guest KwazyDog]

I havnt seen 'Odd Angry Shot' in years, but it isnt a bad movie at all. Its one of those movies youll find on very late at night.

Mad Max was renamed 'The Road Warrior' in the US I believe Rick. I think the whole series was for that matter. This seems to be a not uncommon practice.

[Guest Lokesa]

actually road warrior was the second movie, the first retained it's title mad max. On that subject will ornithropters, barbarian children or arrow firing dune buggies be realistically modeled in CM? It's a pet peeve I have that games rarely correctly model the aerodynamics of the boomerang :-(

[Rick]

I know. The University of North Carolina, where I went to school, showed the original - made in Australia - Mad Max in the free movie in the student union. I've also seen the video for sale. Which is what I was trying to say, I can find that made in Australia movie, but I don't know if I can any others. Admittedly, Road Warrior is much easier to find.

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 08-18-99).]

[Guest KwazyDog]

Yeah, it was, wasnt it Lokesa Hehe, its been ages since Ive seen any of them. The second was definately my favourite of the three.

[Marko]

Don't worry about it PanzerShark. I can wait for a re-run. anyway, I'd much rather obliterate you in Combat Mission.

Exalted opinions of SPR? I think many of us wargamers were impressed by the first 30 minutes. But all in all, it was typical technologically sophisticated Spielbergian vaudeville (now try saying that 5 times quickly).

[Los]

I liked SPR because it captures combat better than any other movie ever made. (exception being Winter War) As for the story or whether this platoon of that ranger company actually landed 50 meters further west or not, well that misses the whole point. Heck I'm as technically adept at spotting stuff like that as anyone around, so what? You wnat the perfect war movie? Do what I did and spend 21 years slogging around all over the world like a pack mule. The two major battle scenes are as well done or better than any ever have been (Remel and the Beach). I'll put up with this or that bit of imperfection (or outright BS)to get more movies that depict combat in such a manner.

RE: Those documentaries I mentioned The Panzer's Marsch can be obtained here:

www.jjfpub.mb.ca

and the FrontSchau (and some other good documentaries, should be available here:

http://www.scholarsbookshelf.com/

Re: The Odd Angry shot. I enjoyed the flick. I've also seen Attack Force Z, The Light Horsemen, Gallipoli. What other good Aussie based war-flicks are out there?

Cheers...

Los

[Ken Talley]

"Breaker Morant" covers Australians in the Boer War and the fine line between war crimes and legitimate warfare as well as scapecoating. It is an older movie from the 80's (?) but very good movie.

Ken

[Kent Pfeiffer]

HBO put out a pretty good movie "When Trumpets Fade" or something like that about the Battle of Hurtgen Forest. Not a subject you see covered very much, even in history books. Its a good example of the almost criminal stupidity exhibited at time by American leaders during the fall of 1944.

[tss]

Simon Fox asked about the accuracy of movie Winter War. It is historically quite accurate, but in some places the director used some "artistic licence".

For example, there is a scene where Russian bombers (or artillery, its been such a long time since I saw it the last time I can't remember for sure) blow up the tower of Äyräpää church. Actually, that tower was demolished earlier by Finns because it was too good landmark for Russian planes. The Russians then managed to blow up the rest of the church when they hit it with a 152mm shell and about 20 anti-tank mines that were stored inside exploded.

The basic picture of the Winter War is quite correct, except that there was no way how they could have potrayed the Soviet artillery barrages accurately. For example, when Soviets were preparing for their major assault on February at Taipale sector (where the movie is situated) they fired more shells in one day than whole Finnish army during the whole war. It was estimated that more than 50000 shells were fired at the 3km Kirvesmäki section, alone.

Many of the events of the movie happened in real life. I don't want to give too much spoilers, but for example the "charge of the light brigade" near the end of the movie is based on real event. Of the almost 200 men of 1st Light Detachment that counterattacked at Äyräpää Church hill only about 20 were not wounded or killed in the attack. I once looked at a book where every Finn that was killed during Winter War is listed (I checked it to see if two brothers of my other grandfather were listed there. They were), and about half of the casualties of the "town" (not actually a town, but I don't have a dictionary at hand to search for correct translation) of Nurmo died during that attack.

I have a personal interest in that movie because my grandfather and his brother served in the same regiment and probably even in the same batallion as the men that are portrayed in the movie. At the time Finnish army units were formed on regional basis. The men in the movie are from Kauhava and Kauhava is adjacent to Härmä, where my family is from.

- Tommi

[Doug Beman]

tss--you're from Finland? Can tell me why the Soviets were attacking Finland in the first place? I've never come across the reasons (I guess I haven't read enough military history yet)

Thanks

DjB

[Rick]

Los,

I agree with you on SPR. The only thing Spielberg was trying to do was show combat as realistically as it can be in a movie and then ask the audience if they have honored the soldiers sacrifices by making their lives extraordinary. He did this quite well. Other details are incidental.

[Los]

Hey for a good readable and detailed account about the Russo-Finnish war I would suggest Willaim R. Trotter's Winter War. It's been a while since I read it so bear with me.

One of the main reason the Russians attacked Finland was their concern about obtaining as much defensive terrain as possible, they demanded some islands and naval bases in the Gulf of Finland as well as the Karelian (sp?) Isthmus in the fall of 1939. After an intense series of negotiations, which eventually proved fruitless, the Russians attacked with overwhelming force. One side effect which almost occured was Britain and France going to war with Russia. There was a huge outcry around the world about small poor Finland being invaded by the nasty Russians (Remember the Russians had also just invaded Poland in conjunction with Germany.)

There was very much pressure in the governments of the western allies to do something to help Finland and the French and English drew up plans to send a relief force through Finland. The Germans (BTW as pissed at the Russians as anyone else), took action against Norway, in some small part to cut off this northern threat by the Allies hence the invasion of Norway.

As for the conduct of the war, generally, the initial Russain invasion was a combination of criminal bungling by high command, ineptly trained troops and staunch Finn resistance. Remember the Russians had just finished the great Red Army Purge where thousands of officers of all ranks were executed on being suspected of treason, so the Army was loaded with incompetents at this point (and would remain that way for years). The factors above combined with the coldest Finn winter in decades led to a major debacle that almost did Molotov (Russia's foreign minister) in.

Particualrly in the central and northern fronts Russian divisions litteraly came to a standstill on the roads they travelled on, freezing and dying by the thousands while lone Finn ski battalions isolated them, and cut the columns into pieces, destroying each pocket in detail.

Fighting in the south at Karelia was characterized by mass armor assualts, Human wave attacks and huge artillery barrages against a fixed defenisive line. These assault when on for weeks and incurred horrendous casulties . These are the kinds of actions which you see in the movie Winter War. The Finns had to hold here because this was the gateway to their nearby capital of Helsinki.

The world held their breath and drew inspiration from the Tiny Finland's successful fight against the Goliath Russia's onslaught.

The Russians hitched up their trousers and drew more forces together. (Some say as many as a million troops were committed all together) There then commenced a second phase of the war where the russians committed even larger number of troops some of which were better trained for cold weather operations and this overwhelming force eventually led to the Finn capitulation.

Of course the Finns licked their wounds and sided with Germany in the invasion of Russai, all too eager to get their terrain back. This is known as the continuation war. The finns launched a determined offensive which tossed the Russains out in short order, however after that they severly limited their further operation and didn't drive in to Russia. When the tables turned and the Russain steamroller started roliing west, they ran again into staunch Finn resistance. What with all the other commitments of the war with Germany, heh russains would eventually settle with not occupying Finland and the Finns maintained an independence of sort though they were sort of required to be allied with Russia during the cold war to some extent (hence the term "finlandization".) Still no Russians divisions occupied Finalnd as did the rest of eastern europe. (Except for a little piece of Karelia they sliced off for themselves.)

There's are tons of great small unit actions to study re: The Winter War. Get the book and the movie!

Los

p.s. my apologies in advance for anything I might have left out or gotten wrong.

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 08-19-99).]

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 08-19-99).]

[Doug Beman]

Many thanks. I had forgotten that Finland has open coastline (my mental geography is nowhere near as accurate as it was in high school)

DjB

[tss]

Doug, yes, I'm a Finn.

Los already gave quite good account on Finland during war, but I'd like to elaborate a little.

It is not possible to be completely sure of what were Stalin's reasons of starting Winter War, since the original documents are either destroyed or in some unexplored corner of Kreml archives. However, after reading quite a lot on subject matter I think that the reasons were:

1) Stalin was worried that some Western country (Germany, France, or England) would land an army to Southern Finland (with or without permission of Finns) and attack Leningrad via Karelian Isthmus.

2) Stalin didn't expect that Finns would give any resistance, and if they gave they would be completely overwhelmed. One important reason for this belief was promises of Finnish communists who had fled to Russia after losing Civil War in Finland 1918. They were certain that working class would start a new revolution when Red Army begins its attack.

3) Finland had been a part of Russia for 108 years and Stalin wanted to get restore the old borders.

There were probably also other reasons, but I think those are the most important.

And to Los, Finland was not allied to Soviet Union during cold war. I'd prefer: "neutral, but with strong determination not to annoy Soviets". However, in just about all army exercises the enemy "just happened" to attack from East, and the situation is the same today. Often when the students of Reserve Officer School are preparing defensive positions for the first time some one of them asks: "What is the enemy's expected axis of advance?". The canonical answer for this is: "The enemy comes from East, unless its on a flanking manouver". The students generally don't have to ask two times.

- Tommi

[Los]

Yes Tommi is correct Finalnd was not allied. A poor choice of words on my point. The correct term would be friendly neutral OR ELSE. Which is basically what the political term "Finlandization" means. Or more accurately "The concept of "Finlandization" in foreign policy was that a nation could make a deal with the USSR and not lose its sovereignty." The Finns walked a very creative line with the Russians RE: The Treaty of Moscow" and maintained their independence which was quite a tribute to them.

Though I'm sure had the Russians tried to screw with Finland in a Warsaw pact/Nato war, they would have run into the exact same problem as in 1939.

Los

[MOS was 71331]

Four more movies worth looking at:

1. "Reach for the Sky" with Kenneth More playing Douglas Bader, an RAF pilot who lost both legs in a flying accident in the 30s yet commanded a Hurricane squadron in the Battle of Britain and later was shot down over France to be a PW in Germany. (More had many years in the 50s as the top drawing male movie star in the UK, but he's little known in the US.)

2. "The One that Got Away" with Hardy Kruger playing Luftwaffe Bf109 pilot Franz von Werra, the only German PW to escape and get back to Germany. He jumped off a train in Canada, stole a small boat, and crossed the St Lawrence in the winter of 1940/1941. He is shot down at the beginning of the movie and the movie ends after he makes it to the US, so there's no flying action. Text on the screen tells you that he returned to Germany and died when his F-model 109 dove into the Channel.

3. "The HMS Amythest Incident" with Richard Todd playing the skipper of the corvette. The ship was in the Yangtzee River during the commie takeover when it was badly damaged by CCA arty on the river bank. After a Brit rescue attempt with bigger ships fails, the ship runs for it at night and gets away.

4. "The Pursuit of the Graf Spee" with Peter Finch playing Langsdorf (CO of the Graf Spee) and Anthony Quayle playing Harwood (CO of the one CA [HMS Exeter], two CL [HMS Ajax and HMS Achilles] group which engaged the GS. You'll recognize a number of other Brit actors: Patrick MacNee (John Steed of the Avengers) and Bernard Lee (M in the James Bond movies).

I lived near London from 1956 to 1958 when my USAF father was assigned there, and I saw a lot of Brit films.

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Airborne Combat Engineer Troop Leader (1966-1968)

[Guest Lokesa]

Another cool movie to check out is "The Beast" definetely worth seeing.

[Doug Beman]

I liked it to, except for that whole "5 guys in one Russian tank" thing. Worked for the drama angle, but not for realism.

"Doug, yes, I'm a Finn."

Tommi, sorry if I put you on the spot. I realized that saying "You're a Finn, so tell me why there was a Winter War" seems sort of accusatory or something.

DjB

[titus]

It's not a historical movie, but 'Beast of War' gives you the life and times of a Russian tank crew in Afghanistan.

-t

[PanzerShark]

Might i assume you haven't received CM yet (looking at this thread's date) ?

Anyway..thx for replying

I have seen BoW, and most parts i really enjoyed, i just thought the acting could be slightly better. Then again, what do i know about acting

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

What is the enemy's expected axis of advance?". The canonical answer for this is: "The enemy comes from East, unless its on a flanking manouver". The students generally don't have to ask two times.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As an explanatory note to this finnish "doctrine":

It's just so bloody unbelievable thought that the swedes would

try to conquer us

Not that they wouldn't have a chance, but I bet US don't practise

much against Canadian invasion.

But actually I do have a film comment as well. If anyone liked

"winter war" he should also like "tuntematon sotilas"

(Unknown soldier) It's been filmatized twice, but the old B&W

version is the classic. It's the best selling finnish movie

ever, and IMHO much better than the "winter war".

[killmore]

The Soviets also claimed that Finland started to build the MAJOR defense line with guns that could fire very far into Soviet Union (even as far as Leningrad/Petersburg).

(Thats the reason one of Soviet soldiers gave me when I asked him in 1982 - he fought in that war )

[Ubermac]

Ah movies, a wargamers sedative...

Just a few things.

The Battle of the Bulge movie is called "a midnight clear", When trumpets fade was utter crap and i gotta admit i always enjoyed the German version of Stalingrad.

Now for a question of my own...i once read 3 books that were a series together. They were about some SS unit and the first book was about the taking of the Belgian fort Eben Emael, the second about the eastern front and the third about Monte Casino i think. The books must've been fiction since i thought it was a Fallschirmjager unit that fought at Monte Casino. Anyone know who the writer is or what the books are called again?

Thanks!

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ubermac:

They were about some SS unit and the first book was about the taking of the Belgian fort Eben Emael, the second about the eastern front and the third about Monte Casino i think. The books must've been fiction since i thought it was a Fallschirmjager unit that fought at Monte Casino. !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No idea about the author, but clearly fiction. Eben Emael and Monte Cassino were mostly Fallschirmjaeger actions, the Waffen-SS did not even come near these.

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Andreas