Instant Battle Feedback & Some Questions

[John Kettler]

Dear BTS,

After loading CM and the 1.01 Mac patch I set up to play a 500 point instant battle vs. AI. I took the Allies on the attack (one level below the most severe type), in the rain. Game duration: 20 turns. No mods to either side. Full FOW. November '44. Small hills. Special graphics off because of only 2 MB VRAM.

The rain made quite an impression, and it made it harder to spot enemy positions. Those with suggestible bladders will find the rain sound experience immersive.

The environmental sounds were great, but the "juddering" sound was back. I toggled sound off, then back on. Voila! Instant engines.

The next thing I noticed was that even though it was raining, in most views I was seeing the Sargasso Sea, the green surround for the battlefield. When I went to ground level view, though, I got the proper murky gray sky. Visually confusing, to say the least.

With that for mood setting, let me just say that from shortly thereafter, very little went right right for the Americans as halftrack after halftrack exploded, usually with serious pain to the passengers. Even by replaying the turn I couldn't figure out why I was taking such punishment. I saw several really big explosions (diameter roughly 3x the length of a halftrack), leading me to think I was just the unlucky recipient of 6" or greater artillery fire, but I did get some report of a possible gun position about the time the reporting unit was hit and destroyed.

Basically my force was trapped in a kill zone with no way to advance across fire swept open ground, especially after my tank support was immolated. Infantry attacks collapsed in the face of withering multiple crossfires, and indirect fires knocked out or immobilized several of my halftracks. I was taking fire from everywhere, from a foe in buildings and entrenchments in the trees, while I was far more exposed.

For reasons I have yet to figure out, I could never get fire missions from my 60mm mortars, even though I never moved them after initial setup and the company CO had LOS to the target. Maybe I put them in woods, figuring that since I could now indirect fire, it wouldn't be a problem. Guess I was wrong! My FO kept getting lost in the woods, harried much of the time by nasty artillery fire, but he did get off three fire missions, one of which was smoke. It fizzled completely. On balance, though, American fire support was grossly inadequate given the threat and the unfavorable terrain. German fire support seemed to be heavy, plentiful and deadly accurate. Murderous, in fact.

The battlefield confusion was so high that I apparently knocked out a gun and an AFV without being aware of it at all. But I was definitely aware of an AFV which popped out from behind one building, drove down the road briefly, then disappeared. Couldn't do anything about it, though, since by then I had no tanks or other long range antitank weapons.

Put the wind up me big time!

The AI kicked the daylights out of me, winning an Axis total victory. (I had a 13% victory level by game end).

Looking at the world from the German side was quite a shock, considering that my squads were in shreds and the Germans barely hit. Another surprise lay in who I fought, the boys in dapple.

Now, I don't know how the instant battle generator works. Nor do I have any way of knowing what kind of fire support the Germans had, since that isn't on the end of game screen either. But I do know that I feel that the force I faced was way too powerful given what I had, my anemic fire support and that there was frighteningly exposed terrain through which I had to advance under stringent time limits.

Does the instant battle generator factor in the time limit when selecting a defense, or is it simply 500 offensive points get X defensive points every time?

How did I, as the attacker, wind up being outclassed in both direct and indirect firepower and against a well dug-in foe in defense favorable terrain? I had no real means of suppressing the defense, didn't know where most of it was, and lost practically every halftrack which tried to advance, along with my tank support.

I'm not claiming I did a perfect job as commander either. I've never had to run U.S. mechanized infantry in the game before, and it showed. In spite of my broad front advance using coordinated leapfrog tactics, covering fires into suspect areas,and infantry to protect my armor, I still got shot to pieces and never had a coherent picture of what I was fighting.

Maybe a concentrated thrust in one area would've done it, but the result of that could've easily been the shattering of my entire force by the hammer from the sky, whatever it was. Whoever ran the German artillery was a master at his craft. I can't remember ever taking such an artillery pounding before.

The whole debacle may've been the result of a bad Allied force mix draw and a great German one. Kind of like getting the short straw, I guess. But this is pure conjecture on my part.

The game itself was gut gripping, a whirlwind of confusion, terror and one failed approach after another. Sometimes, the dragon wins!

Would love your thoughts on what I've said here, BTS.

Gratefully,

John Kettler

[This message has been edited by John Kettler (edited 06-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by John Kettler (edited 06-20-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The next thing I noticed was that even though it was raining, in most views I was seeing the Sargasso Sea, the green surround for the battlefield. When I went to ground level view, though, I got the proper murky gray sky. Visually confusing, to say the least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand. Maybe you can post a screenshot?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>s it simply 500 offensive points get X defensive points every time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Almost - the defender has the "chosen" number of points (500) and the attacker gets a multiple of this depending on the scenario type. The multiple is 1.0 for a meeting engagement, and over 2.0 for an "assault".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The whole debacle may've been the result of a bad Allied force mix draw and a great German one. Kind of like getting the short straw, I guess. But this is pure conjecture on my part.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This can happen, especially in light of the fact that some weapons are "good" against certain enemy units and "bad" against others. In other words, having a bunch of King Tigers is great if you're facing enemy armor, but would be awful if your job was to attack entrenched infantry in heavy woods.

Charles

[John Kettler]

Charles,

Thanks for the quick reply. What I was trying to say about the Sargasso Sea is that the map usually floats in a sea of green. Since it's overcast and raining in this scenario, it looks and feels odd to view the battlefield from any angle but ground level and see no gray sky, just the bright green backdrop and matching airspace above it. I think the battle map survives, so if this still isn't clear to you, I'll read up on screenshots and see what I can do.

Regards,

John Kettler

[von Lucke]

Damn, JK, from the way you described it (and the way I visualized it in my head), it sounds just like an AAR from an inexperienced US commander trying to justify to his CO how he got his ass handed to him by some well prepared Waffen SS troopers!

No offense intended, ya unnerstand! Just the level of realism impressed me...

[Fionn]

LOL John.

This sounds like it could come out of a history book you know .

Honestly I think what happened is that you've just run into the AI we've always been talking about . I've always said that once people started playing DYO battles vs the AI they'd start losing and be surprised at how good the AI is .

John, what EXACTLY were your forces and what EXACTLY did the enemy have?

What you're describing sounds to me like you just walked into one of the AI's kill zones. It likes to set up killzones like that. I bet you were advancing relatively slowly too. It LOVES to call in arty on any slow advance .

I think you just got a bit unlucky and got your ass handed to you on a plate. Such is war unfortunately.

[GhostOne]

My two cents: the Sargasso Sea effect sounds like a video card issue especially with only 2 Megs VRAM.

Also, sounds like you just got a map that wasn't to your benefit as the attacker. I've been playing a lot of Quick Generated battles and the AI has been vey good and sometimes uncanny in it's tactical execution (no pun intended) as Fionn has stated.

Ghost

[John Kettler]

Fionn,

I had what I believe to be a U.S. mech infantry company, 10 M3s with troops to fill them, with a solitary Sherman in support. I had two 60mm mortars, two bazookas, a tripod .50, and an 81mm mortar FO.

My AI foe had a PAK 40,a 251, two Marders, two roadblocks, dug-in infantry in at least three tree protected fighting positions, plus something like a platoon + and supporting elements in five stone houses overlooking the battlefield.

The accuracy of the artillery fire leads me to believe the AI had a TRP, and judging from the size of the explosions, I firmly believe I got hit with 15 cm and 105mm fires. The larger bursts dwarfed anything I ever saw before in the Beta Demo or in CE for the Gold Demo.

I don't mind losing. And I revel in smart AI. What I don't understand is how I was supposed to have any chance at all given the fact that I had one long range direct fire weapon against three for the Germans, had to expose myself completely in order to seize any objective, while attacking into terrain tailor made for the defense, and was completely outclassed in terms of fire support, both absolutely (Germans had much heavier artillery) and relatively (my arty too light for well protected foe's positions).

Given the above, I fail to see the forces as being even remotely in balance. In fact, with what they had, the Germans should've been attacking, instead of me.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Kraut]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I don't mind losing. And I revel in smart AI. What I don't understand is how I was supposed to have any chance at all given the fact that I had one long range direct fire weapon against three for the Germans, had to expose myself completely in order to seize any objective, while attacking into terrain tailor made for the defense, and was completely outclassed in terms of fire support, both absolutely (Germans had much heavier artillery) and relatively (my arty too light for well protected foe's positions).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like you just got a lousy map and/or messed something up in the quick-battle set-up of which you were not aware of. Maybe you accidentily gave the AI a % modifier.

What experience level were the AI troops set at, and what AI experience modifier was set? What kind of force did the AI get (armor, combined arms, mech or infantry)?

I think this is one of those extreme cases where several fugg-ups came together to completely screw you over.

I've played several quick battles already and in some i've totally whooped the AI, in others it was a challenge, and in some i was whooped good.

Play a few more quick battles with different terrain and units/force mix. You'll see that the quick battle generator is quite balanced (judging from my games so far).

MK

[Bullethead]

Well, I had a similar experience to John's in some ways just now. I set up a battle with large hills, moderate trees, village, November 44, clear and dry, 800 points for the defender, combined arms forces, French attacking Gibergsjagers. No modifiers, all forces normal experience (every single guy I had was regular).

My force consisted of 6 grunt platoons, 1x.50cal, 2xM1919, 3xbazookas, 1x105mm FO, 1x81mm FO, and 7x60mm mortars. These guys were supported by 1xM5 light tank, 2xM8 armored cars, 2xM3 scout cars, and 2xM5 halftracks. Also had a company CO and an extra platoon CO. So I figure it was a depleted battalion supported by a cav troop. Good for some purposes but lacking the punch required for a major attack.

And so it proved. The terrain didn't help--on the left 1/2 of the map there was an essentially bald ridge about 300m before the village that I had to cross. Some GBs were in buildings and woods at the bottom of the far side, plus some more in the village beyond which was on a small ridge. If that had been all, I probably could have managed it. GBs don't have much firepower at long range so I could have hosed them with the MGs on my light armor.

Unfortunately, there was another ridge (this one with trees) along the German map edge, and in these trees were some dug-in ATGs and MGs. And the bald ridge in the middle was the highest ground, so I couldn't see the ATGs until I was on or over the bare skyline.

Things there went about like you'd expect. My first guys over the top were allowed into the sparse cover on the reverse slope before MGs and ATGs opened up. Hmm, stay here and get pounded, run back across the open ground under this fire, or press on towards the better cover? I pressed on. That's when I met the dug-in GBs and their MP40s at the bottom of the ridge. My survivors found some cover and remained pinned the rest of the game, unable to advance or withdraw. I figure they snuck out when it got dark. Meanwhile, I lost an M8 that tried to duel an ATG and 81mm mortar shells started falling on the crest, making it unhealthy to attempt to send more help forward.

On the left, there was more cover so my guys were able to get closer to the GBs at the bottom without being splattered. Unfortunately, this cover prevented giving them direct fire support from my vehicles, which could only approach over bare ground around the woods in the face of ATG fire. So I couldn't advance here, either. And blind shelling from the FOs didn't accomplish anything.

So I lost. Badly. Well, c'est la guerre. Sometimes you're just screwed. Yeah, I could have done some things different, but I don't think it would have mattered much. I just lacked sufficient firepower to accomplish the mission at the exchange ratio dictated by the forces and terrain. But that's the way it goes more often than not in real life, so I'm happy with it. Besides, I figure I did a good job reconning the position so tomorrow a more powerful force can take the place following a massive bombardment

As to comments on CM itself, I have 2:

1. I LOVE the French voices. En avant! Toujours l'attaque! A bas les boches!

2. There was 1 spot on the map where a single tile was several levels lower than all those around it. Right in the middle of a smooth hillside was a deep hole like somebody'd dropped the Washington Monument point-first there.

------------------

-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[Sten]

John,

go through the enemies units after the fight. Note exactly what he had.

(You know that when you click 'Map' in the after game screen, FOW is off?)

I've played a guesstimated 250 games of quick battle. 3 or maybe 4 of those games were unwinable, IMHO, from either side.

If you want to make things harder for the AI, go fast. Remember that while you are slowly reconning your way forward, the AI is reconning YOU.

Don't give him the opportunity to move his defences.

Don't show AFVs until you think you know where the AI has his AT capability.

Smoke is good. Smoke is the attackers friend. Deny him info.

Halftracks should not be visible to the enemy after setup, even a small AT-gun will take several out before you can spot it.

Try these hints out and let us know how it goes, ok?

Sten

[Bullethead]

Sten said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I've played a guesstimated 250 games of quick battle. 3 or maybe 4 of those games were unwinable, IMHO, from either side.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I could have won this French game if I'd been willing to accept pretty heavy losses. Like you say, rush rush rush, basically a human wave attack. Would have been pretty similar to WW1 but I might have done it. But I didn't think this village was worth it.

------------------

-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[Sten]

Well...

The rush, rush, rush tactic is OK for relatively small, quick batlle-like maps.

In a larger scenario it's more important to get the defender to commit someplace so as to create a possibility for a flanking attack.

Sten

[Echo]

You had an 81mm FO. Smoke screen for your advanced would have tipped the odds for you.

[John Kettler]

Guys,

Both sides were set to "Medium." Neither side had an advantage. Both sides had combined arms.

My 60mm mortars were placed during setup in scattered trees near the startline, yet never fired a single shot while under command of the company CO. He had LOS to the target but never got any fire from the mortars. As for the 81mm mortar FO, the terrain was sufficiently close that he couldn't see anything until fairly late in the game. My smoke mission fizzled completely, probably because the rain immediately knocked down the smoke particles. Either that or the incoming rounds were buried so deeply in the mud that they couldn't function properly.

Regards,

John Kettler

[RobC]

I have found that it is necessary to give the Allies a +50% modifier to even the odds when the Allies are doing an "attack" or "assault".

The quick battle generator generally gives equal equipment and the dug in defender has the terrain advantage, so the attacker should have at least a 2 to 1 material advantage. I always play the attack or assault scenarios giving the attacker a +50 material advantage at least.

[windstarz]

Sten,

You have played 250 battles already? Don't forget to eat and sleep. It would be a shame to have to feed you intravenously and then heavily sedate you so you wouldn't be "fighting" in your sleep.

[Sten]

windstarz,

I'm one of the betatesters. And the 250 is a very conservative guess. I thought some more about it and 400 is prob a better guess. Two games a day for the last 6 months.

Sten

[Bullethead]

Sten said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The rush, rush, rush tactic is OK for relatively small, quick batlle-like maps.

In a larger scenario it's more important to get the defender to commit someplace so as to create a possibility for a flanking attack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you calling "large"? In this French-Gebirg scenario, I had the better part of a battalion. And I was trying flank moves; 2 platoons in the middle with flanking help from 1 on the right and 2 on the left, with the 6th in reserve for exploitation. I was just defeated by a combination of defensive terrain and lack of firepower to blast out defenders.

Echo said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You had an 81mm FO. Smoke screen for your advanced would have tipped the odds for you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guess you had to be there, but the Germans were too spread out to smoke enough of them to really matter even if my FOs could have survived the attempt to get an LOS to their positions. And shooting blind resulted in an ineffective scatter (much of which went off the back edge of the map).

------------------

-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[Guest grunto]

if i have 10 halftracks full of squads and some support tanks i move out. are you sure there was absolutely no avenue of approach?

if you could find a crease in the map with relatively few ai units able to fire on you, couldn't you dash along that and then dismount with a full company of infantry lodged somewhere in the ai defender's flank?

it does sound like trps you ran into. if you get too close to them their artillery doesn't help them any more.

if there was absolutely no avenue of approach maybe you should have called it a day. but if there were some crease or something i would try the armored thrust.

the thing about halftrack troops is their mobility. they are extremely susceptible to fire though.

when crossing a blind, bald ridge you should either do it with a scout or en masse but no in between.

here's an interesting thought for the americans. i've heard it quoted somewhere that the americans always had a truck or two on hand. OT: if i'm buying a force in a dyo i'm going to always include at least a truck or two with the amis. i think that halftracks are so vulnerable to fire that trucks are a good alternative, at least some of the time. it's probably always good to have one handy lurking out of harm's way for that 'special mission.'

so maybe the ai instant battle generator is unfair. i can't wait to try it out.

from what i read it sure sounds like at least a couple of you wandered into some major ai kill zones.

andy

[Sten]

Bullethead, that is spoiler info. Please edit it.

I have replied to your post in a new thread called 'General battle feedback' in the CM-Scenario Talk forum. Come on over and we'll talk some more, k?

Sten

[This message has been edited by Sten (edited 06-22-2000).]

[Fionn]

Hell,

AT gun--- kill it using the 81mm FO

Marders.. (Open-topped). EASY kills for your mortar teams.

Once those units are dead you should have an easy win on your hands.

[argie]

Sten, Bullethead is talking about a quick battle, I think.

Bullethead, what about smoking your path?

Ariel

[THumpre]

Actually, I have had almost exactly the opposite experience as Mr. Kettler. In several battles I have generated I have found that the AI seems to been somewhat under-manned and out of position at times. I realize that I can't expect the world out of the AI and I must say that the TacAI is VERY good(the computer does not do unreasonble things for the most part)BUT, I have had several DYO battles where the comp. picked a force mix that was woefully ill-equiped to deal with my assault. Is this just a case of the "luck of the draw" or am I doing something wrong in the setup?

Example: DYO Battle(No spoiler)

US force: 1 greyhound

1 57mm AT gun

6 halftracks

2 Co infantry(veterans)

2+ 'zooks

HEAVY arty

German force:

3 Panthers

2 MkIV H

1 Hetzer

2 flame halftracks

1 SS Pzg Co MOT

2 SS Pzg Co

81mm Mot

Battle type: Assault Map:modest hills, villiage, clear, large map

Both force mixes were picked by the comp. with no handicap and the AI was on defense. I did not have a hard time beating it into a pulp, especially since the objective flags were all outside the town proper and the AI set no ambushes in the town at all. I love this game and really aooreciate all of the time and effort that the BTS team has put into it. I am wondering if there was any way to balance out the forces? Was this a statistical fluke? Did I do something wrong? Do I have my head up my butt? Any comments, suggestions, witty poems, or snide remarks would be very appreciated.

------------------

No matter where you go, there you are.

[Bullethead]

Sten said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bullethead, that is spoiler info. Please edit it. I have replied to your post in a new thread called 'General battle feedback' in the CM-Scenario Talk forum. Come on over and we'll talk some more, k?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not a spoiler because it was an instant battle. Nobody will ever have this exact same scenario. I posted it here because it seems this is the proper forum for feedback on general game features, such as the instant battle thing. But if you'd rather go into details elsewhere, I'll go look.

Fionn said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hell, AT gun--- kill it using the 81mm FO<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, tried that. 2 problems, though, which I will explain again.

1. Guns were near the German map edge.

2. The only place with LOS to the guns was the crest and German side of an essentially bald ridge running across the left 1/2 of the map. And this whole area was in the guns' killzone as well as that of HMGs, on-map mortars, and German FOs.

I had already discovered it was bad to send guys over the ridge to help the 1st platoon that triggered the ambush. Anything spotted on the crest and slope drew intense fire, and even trying to crawl over the skyline didn't help. So I wasn't going to put my FO up there to be killed, too. This ruled out observed fire on the ATGs.

So I tried blind fire on the guns. Maybe I was just unlucky, but the scattered pattern this gave me produced no results. And due to the Germans being near the map edge, many of the shells simply landed off the map without hurting anything else.

The right 1/2 of the map had cover for grunts in the form of a big patch of woods on the German side of the ridge, but this same cover prevented using vehicles in direct support. These had to move along axes under the same sort of observation and fire as on the left 1/2 of the map. Thus, an attempt to outflank the Germans on my left also bogged down due to the inability of my grunts to overcome the dug-in Germans on my right by themselves.

------------------

-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[jgdpzr]

THumpre,

I'm assuming the AI(defenders) was the US? I would agree that is a rather unbalanced scenario at first glance. I don't have the game yet so I can't say from experience, but I'd say in that example many of the US points were consumed by arty. It seems a little odd that it would slant so much toward arty when it is on the defensive. I'm sure most human defenders would opt for more ATG's at the very least.

Have you noticed patterns in force mixes and how they vary according to mission types? To better adjust and maintain balance in DYOs, the AI should be able to adjust force mix according to mission type. I'm curious as to how well it does that when you let it pick all the units. I would expect (and certainly hope) that it will do that pretty well when looked at as an average of many different battles, but I can also imagine there will be specific battles where the mix and/or play balance seems a little odd.

------------------

"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. Take it easy, Dude." -- The Stranger

The Dude abides.