Lt Bull Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Howdy, I have searched for info on this topic and found much discussion of it. Amongst all the discussion, I seemed to have lost what the current treatment of hedgerow/bocage terrain in CM will be. For what it is worth, I would consider it to be a difficult terrain feature to model capturing the key elements of how it affected battlefield tactics on both sides and the ways they exploited it and physically overcame it. From what I have read, I believe that all US Shermans and Stuarts after July 1944 will be considered to have been fitted with the Culins hedgecutter device (though not actually physically modelled) allowing them slow passage through hedgerow (with "underbelly" attacks not modelled in any way). It will be impassable to all other vehicles. BTW: For those who have CC1, it comes with some great archival WW2 footage of the hedgerow/bocage terrain of Normandy . One is of a Stuart fitted with the cutters ploughing relatively easily through a hedgerow (probably a "minor" one and not typical). Also, I understand that there will be only one "type" of bocage modelled. My questions are these: 1) How high is the hedgerow modelled in CM? Is it high enough so that some AFVs will get hulldown, all AFVs get hulldown or will the hedgerow be too high for any AFV to fire/see through/over? 2)Will infantry and AT guns be able to fire/see "through" hedgerow getting concealment and defensive terrain benefits for being "behind" it? 3) Will "breaching" a herdgerow (generally for AFV passage) by use of explosives by engineer units be modelled, allowing AFV passage and LOS? This was the main method prior Culin's innovation. 4) If a Culin's fitted tank passes through a hedgerow, will it alter that section of hedgerow for LOS/movement purposes from that time on? Historically, such breaches were of tactical significance where it allowed passage for other units to follow (I realise this would be difficult to model!) I would expect 3) AND 4) to be modelled or not at all. 5) Will the Culin's device ONLY be modelled on a few Shermans and Stuarts? I know they weren't exclusively used on just those tanks (eg M10, Cromwell). From the discussions, it doesnt sound like particular vehicles can be "tagged" as having the device fitted. 6) I would guess that infantry can pass through/over hedgegrow at a reduced movement rate. Will they be subject to any defense penalties for doing so if fired upon? Lt Bull (thanks for the stuffing around Steve, must be working if you can read this ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Good points there, Lt Bull. I've been wondering the same things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Servo Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 I just finished reading Beyond The Beachhead and was thinking about posting some stuff on Hedgegrows/bocage aswell. The tanks were fitted w/ these spike looking things on the front so they could ram them into the hedgegrows, then back up. Then the engineer teams would put explosives in the holes and blow a way through the hedgegrow for the tanks. I doubt this is possible to model in CM, but just in case I'm asking. Thanks. ------------------ Formally Tom punkrawk "Tomorrows killed by yesterday..." -Link80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 aargh! mmmpl! Sounds of tremendous internal struggle occurring, at last mouse pointer shakes its way across screen to submit button....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted February 4, 2000 Author Share Posted February 4, 2000 Now now Simon! Just calm down Lt Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Simon, its 4:30 on a Friday, shouldnt you be having a beer by now ? I am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Servo Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Lucky bastards!! It's still Thursday here! ------------------ Formally Tom punkrawk "Tomorrows killed by yesterday..." -Link80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 I definitely need one But I'm only just having lunch. Don't forget I'm in Perth (3hrs difference). Anyway I ride my bike 25km to work and that definitely does not mix with an after work beer. That can wait till I get home. Hey is there a daynighter on today, something to settle down to with a tinnie when I get home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted February 4, 2000 Author Share Posted February 4, 2000 Simon, you should be able to catch the end of the "game" when you get home....well wouldn't call it that...Australia is 5/296 with 3 overs to go!!!!....more like a walk over (again!). Lt Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Argh, that means its only 2:00 over there, hehe! Hehe, that probably means when I posted it was still morning. Hmm, a little too early for beer on a weekday. I think there is a daynighter if I recall. Sounds like a plan Simon, Ill be there Hehe Ive promise my girlfriend a champaigne breakfast tomorrow so ive got an early one. How the weather over there Simon, hot still, or has it cooled? Tis stomrey here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Apart from a couple of days Jan was pretty cool. Had a few unseasonal storms over here too. Today's perfect, about 28 I think, should be a good ride home. The game sounds a bit one-sided, pity I missed our batting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Ok, to sum up: we've covered beers, bikers, timezones, a strange phenomena called Cricket (if I am not mistaken) and the weather. Anyone spotted any info on the Bocage thingy? No? Sorry, just kidding! Good qestions Lt Bull. I hope they do get answered! Hawk ------------------ Our's is not to reason "why", our's is but to do and die! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Since I have no clue what all the babbling about daynighters is , how about trying to answer some of the bocage questions? 1) How high is the hedgerow modelled in CM? Is it high enough so that some AFVs will get hulldown, all AFVs get hulldown or will the hedgerow be too high for any AFV to fire/see through/over? Hedgerows are too high for any AFV to see over it. However, the way hedgerows are modelled in the game, you can see through them when your units are within 6 meters of it. 2)Will infantry and AT guns be able to fire/see "through" hedgerow getting concealment and defensive terrain benefits for being "behind" it? Yes, when they're within 6 meters of the hedgerows they can see through - witin a certain arc at least. 3) Will "breaching" a herdgerow (generally for AFV passage) by use of explosives by engineer units be modelled, allowing AFV passage and LOS? This was the main method prior Culin's innovation. No, this is not in. 4) If a Culin's fitted tank passes through a hedgerow, will it alter that section of hedgerow for LOS/movement purposes from that time on? Historically, such breaches were of tactical significance where it allowed passage for other units to follow (I realise this would be difficult to model!) I would expect 3) AND 4) to be modelled or not at all. Not possible to simulate at the moment as far as I understand. 5) Will the Culin's device ONLY be modelled on a few Shermans and Stuarts? I know they weren't exclusively used on just those tanks (eg M10, Cromwell). From the discussions, it doesnt sound like particular vehicles can be "tagged" as having the device fitted. I "think" that all allied tanks are allowed to pass through hedgerows, could be wrong though. Since I'm at work right now I can't check. However, ALL US tanks can do it, not only the Shermans and Stuarts. 6) I would guess that infantry can pass through/over hedgegrow at a reduced movement rate. Will they be subject to any defense penalties for doing so if fired upon? Yes, it takes about one minute for infantry to move through hedgerows. I am not sure if there are specific penalties built into the engine, but I sure tend to lose a lot of guys when they're caught doing it and fired at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodwood Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox: I definitely need one But I'm only just having lunch. Don't forget I'm in Perth (3hrs difference). Anyway I ride my bike 25km to work and that definitely does not mix with an after work beer. That can wait till I get home. Hey is there a daynighter on today, something to settle down to with a tinnie when I get home? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Simon, The way the Pakis Perform, I gather you won't need to have to many chilled ales??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 Martin, Check out Sunken Lane... Bil Hardenberger and I are PBEMing it now (he designed it)... Bil is finally reaching my initial defensive line after we spent 19 turns attacking and counter-attacking across two fields (one left of the road, one right of the road) which are less than 100 metres wide. We've left roughly 500 infantry and a Brit tank platoon dead in those fields, the British start lines and the initial German defensive line. It's a good scenario to play PBEM. you should play it vs you know who . Very even. For the rest of you Bocage terrain in CM works JUST like you've read.. It channelises attacks, wrecks the ability of support weapons to act as force multipliers, places a premium on mortar FOs, advancing aggressively and fluid battle situations in which you can be fired on from in front one minute and your left flank the next. Having LOS for more than 40 metres is a RARE occurrence in bocage and ambushes set up behind a piece of hedgerow or bocage are deadly. Bil lost 100 men in 60 seconds when he ran into a couple of ambushes. It's all VERY bloody and deadly. When you get cut off you die VERY quickly but you can never be sure who is cutting whom off with those obstructed LOSes. I think Bocage is going to really separate the good from the great infantry commanders. CM is about the first game I've really enjoyed leading infantry into combat. I used to MUCH prefer tanks but now I think I prefer infantry since its so much more challenging and fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIIRulz Posted February 4, 2000 Share Posted February 4, 2000 They called the metal devices on the front of the tanks "rhinos" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted February 5, 2000 Author Share Posted February 5, 2000 Thank you Moon for bringing the thread back on track and Fionn for giving us a feel for what to expect in CM hedgerow battles (how bout some screenshoots of the action?! ). Moon you wrote: "Hedgerows are too high for any AFV to see over it. However, the way hedgerows are modelled in the game, you can see through them when your units are within 6 meters of it." I can understand this without knowing the EXACT height. Just making sure, when you say they have LOS through bocage at 6m they (inf and AFV) will also be able to fire through the hedgerow without penalty? Second, what of defensive benefits? 1) Will there be any hull down benefits for AFVs behind the hedgerow firing through it? 2)As far as protection from direct fire goes, how does hedgerow compare to stone walls and hedges? Lt Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 5, 2000 Share Posted February 5, 2000 No, I think any fire through bocage carries a penalty by virtue of the fact it is passing through bocage. Also, I wouldn't bring tanks up to within 6 metres of bocages to fire through it. They just would be FAR too vulnerable to a schreck or faust attack from the other side of the bocage and to their left or right (where the tank might only be able to see two or three metres laterally on the other side of the bocage.) Bocage terrain is just a death-trap waiting for victims. I finished playing a game in which I had 4 British companies and 9 tanks vs 2 German companies. The brits lost 3 full companies and 4 tanks and only killed 1 company of Germans really. So, as you can see it really is terrible terrain to fight over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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