Sarge Posted January 17, 2000 Share Posted January 17, 2000 i tried a search, but though i am sure this has been asked, toss caution to the wind and ask again. on that subjest i'd also like to say that many times people ask questions that have been asked before, but to us recruits (december) its good to read the same question because at first i didn't know about search and 2nd sometimes you don't know HOW to search. so i read once about Brit armor in Africa being shot at by Panzer on an encarpment. the Brit AP wouldn't reach, But HE could (is greater range included for HE?) so the brit in their clever way fired off He at the Panzer's and saved themselves as the german AFV's back away. reasons given in book: 1)fear of immobilization 2)chance of igniting fire on engine hatches 3)slim possiblity of penetrating a hatch or similar less armored surface. since we can't choose our type, will targeting a AFV when all thats left is HE be allowed? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 17, 2000 Share Posted January 17, 2000 Of course, when you have gun that is big enough even a near miss will stop a tank. Even if the explosion can not penetrate the armor, it can still knock the crew out or even topple the tank. I'm not certain but I'd guess that the line goes somewhere around 150mm. At that point it does not matter much what kind of ammunition you use or how thick armor the enemy has. I seem to remember that HE from German 105mm howitzers could knock T-34s out but I can't remember how it fared against heavier tanks. On the other hand, Finnish BT-42 assault guns armed with British 114mm howitzers could not do anything to modern Soviet tanks during Summer '44 so the HE performance is not completely linear. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 17, 2000 Share Posted January 17, 2000 The CM demo seems pretty generous to me in terms of the effectiveness of HE against light armor. For instance, you can run LD as the Germans and have your Tiger shoot HE at your halftracks. You can't target them directly, you do area fire at the ground under them. A single near miss from 88mm HE will destroy the halftrack and kill most of the people inside. Perhaps this is because the fragments are coming up through the belly armor, not the sides. OTOH, I had 2 StuGs shoot at all their HE at each other with no effect other than buttoning. Not exact by any means and the real game may do things differently. -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 17, 2000 Share Posted January 17, 2000 Nah, the reason is that HTs are VERY lightly armored and have plenty of weakspots. They were designed to withstand small arms fire of .30 cal or less. A shell fragment coming from an 88 HE at close range would pack a bigger hunk of metal and kenetic energy than a .30 cal for sure. Yes, it wouldn't have the same penetration capabilities grain for grain, but never the less a good chance of punching through a HT. I've seen shots of KO'd HTs that showed clear signs of shrapnel tears in the main armor. Of course it is hard to say what did that, but 88 HE is no firecracker Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 18, 2000 Author Share Posted January 18, 2000 but my question oh knowledgable ones! can you CHOOSE to fire HE if both types are still in supply (using Kevi's approach) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 No. The TacAI fires rounds based on SoP for that type of round. So it would fire AP against a halftrack unless AP were no longer available. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 And once it runs out of AP it fires HE. I killed two Stuarts with HE in one scenario. 128mm HE from a JagdTiger ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Fionn said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And once it runs out of AP it fires HE. I killed two Stuarts with HE in one scenario. 128mm HE from a JagdTiger<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've had StuGs kill grunts with AP, too. Reminds me of some cuirassier armor picked up at Waterloo with a 12-pounder hole through front and back.... -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Steve said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I've seen shots of KO'd HTs that showed clear signs of shrapnel tears in the main armor. Of course it is hard to say what did that, but 88 HE is no firecracker<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh, no doubt some 88 fragments could go through the halftrack's armor from a nearby shellburst. However, an 88 is a firecracker as shells go (at least from an arty POV ). I was really questioning the number of casualties. Not only the track destroyed but most of its passengers, too. Picture a shell exploding a few feet away from and centered along the length of the halftrack. The fragments come out in an expanding torus centered on the shell's axis. Due to geometry, less than half of the total number of fragments would hit the halftrack. Of these, a large percentage would hit at high angles, decreasing their ability to penetrate. And those that hit closer to plate normal are irregularly shaped. Those that hit flat would have significantly less penetrating ability than those that hit end-on, and in penetrating would lose a significantly higher proportion of their energy. And even those that hit end-on lack a hard penetrator tip so wouldn't penetrate as well as an AP bullet of the same mass and velocity. So you're looking at a fairly narrow band on the side of the halftrack, centered on its closest point to the shellburst, where the fragments will be able to penetrate or cause lethal secondary fragmentation inside. This area corresponds to a gore of the side of the unexploded shell, which is the source of all potentially penetrating fragments. Which for an 88 really isn't all that many, simply because the shell is relatively small in size. Furthermore, all of these will be hitting on a relatively small section of the target, compared to the total length of the target. Thus, IMHO, real damage to the halftrack and its occupants from a nearby shellburst should be concentrated in a fairly small area, the length of which in proportion to the length of the target depends on the size of the shell and its distance from the vehicle. And an 88 is small fry in the world of high explosives. I have no idea what the math is, but I wouldn't expect an 88 bursting within 5' to riddle from end to end a halftrack capable of stopping rifle bullets. Yet this is apparently just what's happening. In most cases, there are 6-8 casualties in transported squads, besides the track being knocked out. Maybe this is correct--like I said, I don't know the math involved here. But it seems a bit questionable to me, as if the whole squad was dogpiling one of its members, and by bad luck this lined up to the small patch where the fragments could get through. -Bullethead PS, if I have convinced you to look at and maybe change this, PLEASE save it for a patch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Ah, but you must remember what the passenger layout is for a HT, especially a 251. The guys are shoulder to shoulder in two rows. If something ripped through the side of the HT it would splinter once through. As we all know, a BB sized piece of metal is enough to kill or incapacitate a person. So imagine 8 men, tightly packed 4x4, and something smashing in from the side. I would imagine at least 4 men becoming casualties easy. Not KIA perhpas, but remember that CM's casualties are INCAPACITATED, not KIA. So in that 251 hit you saw probably one or two dead and several wounded. This doesn't seem to be a stretch at all. As for near total fatal hits on HTs, I don't often see them. Usually most of the crew and passengers get out OK. In fact, I have seen plenty of HTs knocked out by 81mm mortar fire with no casualties at all. But if one of those rounds hits really close, there is sure to be at least a couple guys knocked out of action in some way shape or form. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Well, BH, its obvious YOU didn't use the terminal ballistics class to catch up on some sleep Now we just need to convince BTS of the need to change the shape of HE explosions from a dome to a 3D 'V' shape. Methinks this won't happen anytime soon ... yours ballistically Jon ------------------ Ubique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Steve said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The guys are shoulder to shoulder in two rows. If something ripped through the side of the HT it would splinter once through. As we all know, a BB sized piece of metal is enough to kill or incapacitate a person. So imagine 8 men, tightly packed 4x4, and something smashing in from the side. I would imagine at least 4 men becoming casualties easy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I knew you were going to say this . OK, let's look at this in a bit more detail. Which 4 guys? It doesn't seem possible to me, due to the geometry, that it would be all 4 on the same side (unless they had their heads sticking up over the edge). So to get 4, it seems to me that some have to be on the other side. Which means that the fragments have to go not only through the armor on the entry side, but also through all the backpacks, supplies, and loot piled against the side behind the seat, then through some guys on the seat (who are packed shoulder-to-shoulder). Armor chunks dislodged also have to go through all this other stuff, and they have less energy than the shell fragments did. So hitting guys on the far side seems to me a pretty tall order for fragments. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for near total fatal hits on HTs, I don't often see them. Usually most of the crew and passengers get out OK. In fact, I have seen plenty of HTs knocked out by 81mm mortar fire with no casualties at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just playing with LD some more, it appears there is more difference in effect between certain shells than can be accounted for by just the difference in shell size. Targets were placed within 100m of shooter and area fire target placed with #5 view directly under center of target vehicle. 75mm vs. 251 Usual result is no effect at all. After 4-5 shots, the halftrack is usually shown as "immobilized in crater," but I don't know whether the immobilization was from the crater appearing or from damage. Still no casualties inside. The passengers bail at this point but the crew remains inside. Continued firing usually has no further effect, but occasionally causes the crew to abandon by killing one of them. 88mm vs. 251 1 shot knocks out the vehicle every time, generally with 4-6 total casualties spread between crew and passengers. The lower casualty numbers most often occur when the passengers are teams instead of squads. So, on average, 1x75mm shell causes no damage at all, while 1x88mm shell always destroys the vehicle and usually inflicts significant personnel casualties as well. Given that an 88mm shell was only about 14-15% bigger than a 75mm in both length and diameter, this difference in effect seems rather extreme to me. The disparity is even more marked when you compare the 88mm shell to the 81mm mortar results you obtained. -Bullethead [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 01-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard III Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Sorta vagely relevant to this topic: did the KV-II have an AP round available for it? Or did it do its work solely with HE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 JonS said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now we just need to convince BTS of the need to change the shape of HE explosions from a dome to a 3D 'V' shape. Methinks this won't happen anytime soon ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, how the center of mass of the fragment cloud continues moving along the path of the shell, which is why you really need airbursts, and thus mechanical time fuses, for best effect against troops -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aacooper Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 I don't think CM models the game to the extent you guys are discussing, and remember that casualties are deaths, incapacitations, and anything that makes the guy leave for the duration of the scenario. So, if someone gets shot, another guy might shoulder his rifle and carry him back to an aid station. For CM's purposes, wounding one guy might cause the squad strength to drop more than a KIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For CM's purposes, wounding one guy might cause the squad strength to drop more than a KIA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, no problem with that. I'm just puzzled as to why an 88mm HE shell is so devastating compared to the 75mm. Neither is very big as shells go (both would be classed as light arty), and to me there doesn't seem to be enough difference in size between them to account for the very different combat results. -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 Ohmygod, cannoncockers ALWAYS find eachother. It's SO funny The poor CMMC guys are gonna get a crash course in arty it's obvious ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm just puzzled as to why an 88mm HE shell is so devastating compared to the 75mm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is just a wild ass guess, but since the 88 started life as an AA gun, is it possible that the ammo was designed for that role? As I understand it, FlaK kills are usually from near misses rather than direct hits... big FlaK that is. One thing is for sure, every first hand account I've seen indicates that the 88 was a deadly infantry killer... much more so than the 75. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 Fionn wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The poor CMMC guys are gonna get a crash course in arty it's obvious<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> he he I want Bullethead as my Corps (or division) level arty officer. Well, as long as he gives me my arty support and not some long dissertation about its effectiveness. I want shells not words. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 Jon S and Bullethead are writing the arty rules .. Poor corps and army arty officers.. They are SO going to have their work cut out for them. On the plus side what we've discussed so far is really good and will form some VERY solid yet simply arty usage rules of much greater detail than is available in other games. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Sterrett Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 Richard: the KV-II was built for bunker-busting (on the basis of Finnish War experience); I do not *know* but would imagine that it carried both HE and some manner of concrete-busting shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 19, 2000 Author Share Posted January 19, 2000 its so obvious maybe thats why no one has mentioned it: the diff between 75 & 88? one word "velocity" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>its so obvious maybe thats why no one has mentioned it: the diff between 75 & 88? one word "velocity"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What has velocity to do with HE effectiveness? I believe the 75 mounted on a Panther has a higher velocity than the 88 on a Tiger I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 Well, I will run the comparision between the 75 and 88 by Charles and see what he has to say. I also think that we now do simulate "cone" shaped explsions, at least for artillery rounds. This was part of a much larger change of how artillery is simulated. As for taking out 4 men, WIA/KIA, I still say it is VERY possible. For a single piece of sharp to go through armor, seat, backpack, and bone to wound/kill 4 men is a bit of a stretch. But why does it have to? Backpacks and seats only go up to about lower shoulder blade height so a piece could fly through the neck and into someone sitting opposite. Since the path is only about 3-4 feet between the two there is no significant forces at work to decrease the lethality. Also, if one piece punctured the vehicle it is very possible that a second would, each perhaps splintering once through. So we are not talking a JFK "single sharp" theory here As I said earlier, losing a man is not necessarily a KIA and therefore high casualties from a near miss by a powerfull HE round is not out of the question. If it happens all the time then there is reason to question the frequency, but not the fundamental outcome. And yes, the 88 HE round was designed for maximum shrap effect as that is what flak is all about. If an 88 HE round can take out a B-17 with a near miss while it is going 100+ MPH at several thousand meters distance, it certainly can take out a HT that is going 10mph at 300m. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted January 20, 2000 Share Posted January 20, 2000 Umm, surely the Tiger didn't fire AA rounds? Also, given that the emplaced, on map 88mm guns (eg the two at Reisburg) were using AA rounds, then they should be able to fire airbusts around the grunts heads Finally, 'cone' HE explosions. Way neat. VERY much looking forward to seeing this in play. ------------------ Ubique [This message has been edited by JonS (edited 01-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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