Berlichtingen Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Awhile back, the question was raised about the quality of SS commanders. I had just picked up Yerger's book on SS Commanders. This is appearantly vol.1 as it covers Augsberger to Kreutz. Of the 44 officers covered, I made a list of those commanders which appear to be really good. SS-Oberführer Otto Baum SS-Gruppenführer Wilhelm Bittrich SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer Josef "Sepp" Dietrich SS-Obergruppenführer Herbert Otto Gille SS-Brigadeführer Heinz Harmel SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer Paul Hausser SS-Gruppenführer Matthias Kleinheisterkamp Of these Baum and Hausser are truly outstanding. Of these, Baum is the only one without army training and experience. Note: Baum held virtual Corps command during Normandy while at the rank of Standartenführer (colonel). A note about Dietrich: Dietrich maintained an outstanding staff. Much of his success must be attributed to them. However, Dietrich was greatly admired by the men who served under him, which is also the mark of a great commander. One probably unimportant fact... most of these men came from an artillery background. One thing that I did pick up on, was that the SS officer school system produced some truly outstanding battalion and regimental commanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Its not an unimportant fact at all - everyone knows gunners make the best soldiers (looks around frantically for a shellscrape c/w OHP) Jon ------------------ Ubique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 18, 2000 Author Share Posted January 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Its not an unimportant fact at all - everyone knows gunners make the best soldiers <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Spoken like a true cannon cocker. I spent 3 months with an arty bn... nice vacation from the real military. What's the saying "If we can't truck it, f#$k it?" If you don't mind getting dirty come play with us grunts sometime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 I am a bit hesitant to say it, because the man was one of the lowest creatures to come out of the Third Reich, but Theodor Eicke would qualify as a great leader. Substandard in terms of military leadership (below even Dietrich), but Eicke really knew how to inspire his men. He basically made the 3rd SS Totenkopf the elite military formation that it was. It takes NO small amount of tallent to mold an elite unit. He was also one of the key people responsible for the Final Solution, so I do not wish to see his name glorified. Just one of those military figures in history that deserves credit in some ways and the noose in others. Thankfully a plane crash took care of that for the world. For those interested in this odd combo, check out "Soliders of Destruciton" by Charles Sydnor. Fantastic book and well worth the price if it is out of print again. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Some ignorant grunt said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Spoken like a true cannon cocker. I spent 3 months with an arty bn... nice vacation from the real military. What's the saying "If we can't truck it, f#$k it?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not surprised at this remark, coming as it does from somebody deliberately selected and promoted for his attitude that charging straight uphill into dug-in machineguns is a good idea. With this as a starting point, what else can you expect? This is merely the latest manifestation of the neandergrunt habit of rejecting all attempts to make his life both more pleasant and longer, as shown by these examples from history: The Celt: "Who needs armor?" The knight: "Guns are for wussies!" Only after entire generations of neandergrunts have been killed off by their own obtuseness does the next generation grudgingly adopt the new method, and this usually only because there is no-one left alive still teaching the old. But of course by this time the "new" method is itself obsolete. So here we have a neandergrunt rejecting the use of military motor vehicles, which have only been available since the early 20th Century. He'd still rather walk through mud and minefields. Oh well, there will always be a need for troops who enjoy marching into the Cannon's Mouth -Bullethead [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 01-18-2000).] [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 01-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 18, 2000 Author Share Posted January 18, 2000 Did I hear a squeak from back in the rear with the gear? Ah silly connon cockers... its been so long since they actually spent time in the front line that they don't realise that we no longer march into the cannons mouth. Hell, to do that, we'd have to have penetrated so far into the rear area that the battle would be over. Military motor vehicles? All a true warrior needs is a pure heart and a K-Bar, bayonet or e-tool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 18, 2000 Author Share Posted January 18, 2000 Steve, I concidered Theodor Eicke, but the man was so completely disgusting... He did, indeed, turn SS-Totenkopf into the best of the SS divisions. I've always wondered what would have happened if that division had been at Normandy. One reason that I included Dietrich and not Eicke, was Dietrich wasn't stupid and seemed to know his own limitations. He had an excellent staff, and stayed out of their way. Hell, I admire any SS general that was more than willing to disregard orders from Hitler when they were stupid (Dietrich and Hausser). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Brilliance has nothing to do with ethics, moral or love for the next (depending on category). Hitler was a genius politician, Caesar was responsible for lots of human lifes and so was Napoleon. Geniuses? Absolutely! I got really whipped for saying something like Steve said on another board, nice to know other people got the same opinion on the matter. Btw Paul Hausser is my favourite. His attack on Kursk was stunning and Adolf didn't appreciate it much now did he Bold and a kind of a gifted gambler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 18, 2000 Author Share Posted January 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by howardb: Brilliance has nothing to do with ethics, moral or love for the next (depending on category).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, but in the case of Eicke, tactically, he was far from brilliant. He was a butcher... of his own men. I would be willing to bet that SS-Totenkopf had the highest casualty rate of any unit during the war. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hitler was a genius politician, Caesar was responsible for lots of human lifes and so was Napoleon. Geniuses? Absolutely!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No arguement <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Btw Paul Hausser is my favourite. His attack on Kursk was stunning and Adolf didn't appreciate it much now did he Bold and a kind of a gifted gambler.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hausser is one of my favorite generals of the entire war. Check out Otto Baum. His story is really interesting. His performance during Normandy was very impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 The problem with discussing good "commanders" is that there are three traits that make up each. Now, to the degree that they posess all three is the degree I rank them. But any STRONG showing in so much as one trait makes me tip my hat with some degree of respect. They are: 1. Military Leadership (in the sense of tactics, logistics, and overall sense of military situations). This can be subdivided into Tactical and Strategic if you like. 2. Motavational Leadership (in the sense of getting men to perform up to standards ABOVE normal military training under the most difficult circumstances). 3. Ethical Leadership (doing the "right" thing for either the men under him, for his country, or "greater society") There are VERY few commanders that have high marks in all three. I would say that Hauser scores very well in all three. Someone like Rommel or Patton scores HUGELY the second and third, but only decently in the first. Eicke can only claim good marks in the second, very low in the first and NEGATIVE in the last. There are also two German Generals I can think of that surrendered major cities intact (Paris and Rome) instead of raising them to the ground as ordered. Their military careers were admirable, but not spectacular. However, they each made at least one decision that the world should forever be greatful to them for making. All of this can be debated of course, but that is the fun of history Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Berlichtingen: What about Kempf? I don't know much about him but he seemed to have quite an important role. In February 1943 Hausser replaced him as commander of the 1.SS PanzerKorps. During Barbarossa he commanded the 58.PzKorps I think with the 1.PzGruppe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 BTS, Von Choltitz was the one who saved Paris. Hitler had ordered him to blow up the city. He refused when he suddenly realised that "he had a madman talking in front of him". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ah silly connon cockers... its been so long since they actually spent time in the front line that they don't realise that we no longer march into the cannons mouth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Typical neandergrunt, he hasn't yet realized that anything on and a couple dozen clicks behind the FEBA is already in the Cannon's Mouth <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Military motor vehicles? All a true warrior needs is a pure heart and a K-Bar, bayonet or e-tool<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmmm, maybe "neandergrunt" is too generous a term. Perhaps "australopithigrunt" is more appropriate, given such a throw-back attitude. I've encountered nothing like it since the 100 Years War. Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt. I bet you're the reincarnation of Blind King John of Bohemia -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted January 18, 2000 Share Posted January 18, 2000 Hey Bullethead, let me help you out here. I think the combination you are looking for here in Neandro-luddite-grunt. How's that work. Oh ****, I still have a game going with Berli. ------------------ desert rat wannabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 Goanna said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think the combination you are looking for here in Neandro-luddite-grunt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> By St. Barbara, I think you've got it! A combination of the staggering lack of imagination of neanderthal man, who chipped his rocks in exactly the same way for over 200,000 years, with the Luddites' intensely violent rejection of new technology. It's perfect -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 Guys, I think this interservice ribbing is more than just a bit funny I'm really glad to see it stay in the realm of good natured hummor. Also makes for fun reading! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 I don't know Berl, but it looks like the cannoneers are ganging up on the fodder. What next from Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 19, 2000 Author Share Posted January 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What about Kempf? I don't know much about him but he seemed to have quite an important role. In February 1943 Hausser replaced him as commander of the 1.SS PanzerKorps. During Barbarossa he commanded the 58.PzKorps I think with the 1.PzGruppe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is no Kempf listed in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bauhaus Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goanna: Hey Bullethead, let me help you out here. I think the combination you are looking for here in Neandro-luddite-grunt. How's that work. Oh ****, I still have a game going with Berli. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Goana, knowing Herr Berli like I do, you just described him to a tee. You just forgot to mention his knuckles dragging on the ground. Hell, I have a game with him and I work with him....damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 Well since we're talking about SS commanders I also think Geberal Artur Phelps of 7 SS Gebirs Division "Prinz Eugen" did a lot. He basically formed the division from scratch from Banat Germans in Hungary and other nearby regions and turned it into a pretty darned good division fighting in a very nasty environment (Yugoslvia). I'm reading their history right now. Pretty interesting. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 19, 2000 Author Share Posted January 19, 2000 Ah, where to start... Bullethead <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Typical neandergrunt, he hasn't yet realized that anything on and a couple dozen clicks behind the FEBA is already in the Cannon's Mouth<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Usually, the safest place on a battlefield in where arty is shooting. Been that way since you guys stopped loading your guns from the front. This no doubt comes from those soft beds and hot chow you get in the rear <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hmmm, maybe "neandergrunt" is too generous a term. Perhaps "australopithigrunt" is more appropriate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think I prefer "australopithigrunt." <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I bet you're the reincarnation of Blind King John of Bohemia<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Please, Fredrich... got to love a guy who makes his grenadiers march into the attack on Austrian artillery with their arms shouldered Goanna <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Oh ****, I still have a game going with Berli.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A squeak from the land down under... Why yes, Goanna, we do. I had been considering accepting your surrender for humanitarian reasons.... but your post reminded me of my true nature, so its the bayonet for your boys Steve <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Guys, I think this interservice ribbing is more than just a bit funny<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not sure interservice is the right word. I don't know about JonS, but Bullethead and I both Marines. This of course means that should he ever lose his cannon, he'll at least know which end of his rifle the bullets come out of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 19, 2000 Author Share Posted January 19, 2000 Bullethead, On a serious note: Did you ever hear about the French attitude about howitzers at the beginning of WWI? Something like "we don't need load noises to prop up our morale" ...what idiots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>should he ever lose his cannon, he'll at least know which end of his rifle the bullets come out of<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But, why would I care? If the bad guys get close enough to 'see the whites of their eyes' its time for this young gunner to be going home Jon ------------------ Ubique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 Uh, need I remind the cannonheads that artillery without groundpounders never wins. i'm still with you Berl but as you know from my tactics I'll be of little help. [This message has been edited by Moriarty (edited 01-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted January 19, 2000 Share Posted January 19, 2000 ... and vice versa. 10 points to the first person who knows what "Ubique" means, and why its relevant to this thread - or at least what this thread has turned into Jon ------------------ Ubique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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