High cost of CM for non-US residents

[Guest KwazyDog]

Now youve done it Mace, hehe, and we were all playing so nice.

Ahh fosters...heres a site for the Aussies to check out (trust me, its worth it, hehe)... www.ibelieve.com.au

Download the ad, its good for a laugh. Apparently its only downloadable if your accessing the site from Australia though...not sure why but I guess its becuase its an Aussie add and all .

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 09-15-2000).]

[PeterNZer]

Goanna, you said it all mate

No offence to the yanks on the board, but i have also noticed what you have, the peculiar blending of concepts of government and economics that results, often, in the misconception that capitalism is the political system in America.

Unfortunately it often gets caught up in a kind of 'invented here' mythology as well.

I've also seen the odd situation where a criticism of US government policy is seen as a criticism of the US as whole, its people and its military.

Always found that one quite odd. Maybe it's the European tradition I've been brough up in. If I said the Ausie govt didn't handle Bouganville very well and were dodgy in selling the Solomons govt. helecopters, most Ausies would probably agree. Criticise some US foreign policy and you get someone get all excited saying they saved you in ww2 and now you have the cheek to.. etc etc.

It's interesting that the myth of communism and socialism never 'suceeding' is brought up.

Everyone notice how it's always phrased in the much the same way, and used the same way? To me that has become the first sign of fairly mindless repetition of something held as 'fact'.

There are infact many interesting cases where a non-capitalist system has worked pretty well. I'm not expert on this stuff, but I can think of a few distinctly non-capitalist systems that have faired wel

- Kibutz

- Collectives such as Fagor in Spain, and others in the UK and so on

- Anarchist governments in Spain during the revolution, (unfortunately crushed by Franco)

I'm sure we could think of many more systems and times when a non-straight-out-capitalist system has been around.

I think it's important we keep these other options in our minds so we avoid reaching the intellectual dead end that is assuming our way is the 'right' way. Already it has happened largely. Debate doesn't centers on whether wages are to high, or too low, never straying on to whether there should be wages at all. (I'm not arguing that way, just using it as a crude example).

I think it's a pity really, that capitalism has 'won'. I hope we can collectively remember that there are other ways, and always meassure the successes of capitalism against other yardsticks. Otherwise we risk just 'assuming' the system we have is perfect.. and I think that's dangerous.

Ahh fridays.. my mind does wander.

O, if you're American, don't take offence.. my observations come from other forums (forai? ) in the past and through dealings with.. i'm guessing.. less educated/intelligent people.

PeterNZ

[Stuka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slayer:

Americans: They drink Budweiser ,or some other crap, to get loaded and then drink ONE German beer to pass out....

Greetings from the land of the beerdrinkers

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFLMAO, Top taunt Herr Slayer! That has given me the best laugh since I started on this forum!

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Here in the US, where BTS lives and works, we have this concept we like to call "capitalism". Basically, it means that the fact that BTS is making some amount of money does, in fact, make it "right". See, making money is exactly what the entire point of business ventures are.

Jeff Heidman

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with this concept, as long as companies don't mislead people into buying their products.

From watching advertisements on TV, etc. (and the Hasbro thread on this forum) I am not sure that all companies who earn money deserve it, they are tricking people. That's called swindling, a form of theft. (Not to mention that some people would argue that it's a diluted form of evil )

BTS was honest from the beginning, I played the demo and found that just the demo was way above anything else I have seen on the market.

It also gave me something I had dreamed about for at least the past five years: a game that is as close to computer Advanced Squad Leader as can be produced right now with the available technology.

I am older now, I live 600km away from my home town, i.e. from all my friends, I have a wife and son, etc. I can't do the boardgame tournaments with chips and pizza that would last for full weekends anymore. I needed something that would let me play again, at my leisure, with anyone on the planet. BTS delivered.

(I wish someone would to the same thing for Star Fleet Battles).

So when I ordered CM, I was happy to pay for the product, in fact I haven't been disapppointed with CM at all. That says a lot, because I tend to criticize everything. I mean just look at the threads in this forum, there haven't been ANY catastrophic bug in the first release of CM. And read the CM ratings in the game reviews.

We have a problem with our currency in Canada too, the Canadian dollar was worth US$1.20 years ago, now it's hovering at about 60 cents.

I wouldn't blame BTS for currency exchange rates, I would blame poor economic policy. Some countries are more interested in selling "stuff" to other countries, like the Liberal government here in Canada likes to do. It boosts exports, so it's (sort of) good for the economy. The downside is when you have to buy products from other countries.

The U.S. has a corresponding problem they keep whining about their "trade deficit" -- U.S. citizens are buying "too much" stuff from other countries. The fact that the U.S. dollar is so high causes this state of affairs. In true American fashion, they talk about open markets when it comes to selling in other countries, but when it's about their own markets they are as protectionist and interventionist as many other countries. They tried to strong-arm Japan into buying the poor quality American cars, for example. Here in Canada we keep having to defend ourselves before Free Trade Agreement panels because of trade disputes when our products sell well in the U.S..

I don't know much about economics, but I think that the U.S. dollar became the "currency standard", replacing gold bullion, because there were concerns re. availability of gold in Western economies. South Africa had more, the U.S.S.R. had more. So the G7 got together, dumped the gold standard, and used the U.S. dollar instead.

I am not sure, but I think that Keynesian economics played a role in this too -- you know the "we can borrow from our future and create budgetary deficits, because we will just owe the money to ourselves" line of argument. Personally I seriously doubt that their kids won't have to pay at least some of the previous generations' debts.

Before Keynes I think things were easier to follow: Either you had money, or you didn't. Was your buget in the black, or in the red? Now things are not so simple.

The U.S. dollar being the frame of reference also keeps the U.S. dollar higher than it probably should be. When economies are in crisis people want to deal in U.S. dollars, it used to be that people would just convert their money into gold.

Sorry about the long posts, I have a day off from work today.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, I want to learn. I am also only in my mid-thirties so I don't know much.

[Guest MajorH]

> There are infact many interesting cases where a

> non-capitalist system has worked pretty well. I'm not

> expert on this stuff, but I can think of a few distinctly

> non-capitalist systems that have faired wel

> - Kibutz

> - Collectives such as Fagor in Spain, and others in the UK

> and so on

> - Anarchist governments in Spain during the revolution,

> (unfortunately crushed by Franco)

Collectives and communes can work - but only when they function under the protection and largess of a larger (i.e. national level) capitalist framework .

------------------

Best regards, Major H

majorh@mac.com

[ACEofHeart]

Hmmmm,, since when is just being a good

game criteria for a higher price ???

There has been dozen of Hall of Fame games

that sold for $39 to $49.

One would think since there was NO middle-man needed and cost of special packaging was

NOT needed, Combat Mission would have sold for much less not more than main stream games.(eg. AOE2 or Diablo)

I guess since they assume much fewer sales

with just Online Ordering ,the pricing was set higher. With that said I bought CM, but

still not happy about the way it was priced. Seemed counter-productive to me.

[PeterNZer]

hehe

thought someone might say that Major H, and I have to say I don't have a good answer

Of course, being a socialist doensn't.. I think.. necesarily mean you aren't a capitalist... hmm it's been way to long since I studied political theory.

Well anyway. I guess my point is that there are other models of capitalism and political economy out there than the one we have now, and they have worked well as well! so nyah!

PeterNZ

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patboivin:

They tried to strong-arm Japan into buying the poor quality American cars, for example. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is misleading. The U.S. has found itself in many "trade agreements" where so-called "free trade" is free only in one way. Take Japan for example, they limit the number of cars that American companies can sell in Japan. If American cars are "crap", as you indicated, then they will fail in the market. But how can one truly guage the quality if they are not allowed to be sold?

I am not familure with the Canadian/US problems in trade, that you mentioned, as much as I am with Mexican/US trade.

Cav

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ACEofHeart:

Hmmmm,, since when is just being a good

game criteria for a higher price ???

There has been dozen of Hall of Fame games

that sold for $39 to $49.

One would think since there was NO middle-man needed and cost of special packaging was

NOT needed, Combat Mission would have sold for much less not more than main stream games.(eg. AOE2 or Diablo)

I guess since they assume much fewer sales

with just Online Ordering ,the pricing was set higher. With that said I bought CM, but

still not happy about the way it was priced. Seemed counter-productive to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People need to go take an Econ 101 class.

The first thing they will teach you is that the cost to produce an item has no bearing on the price it is sold for.

Why do people think BTS should maximize anything other than their profits? Are the a non-profit charity or something?

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Big Time Software]

This is so true. Anybody here eat out at all? In the US a cheese pizza costs between $8 and $16 dollars, depending on where you order (boonies vs. Manhattan). Well, the cost of the pizza itself is about $0.60 or so, maybe a little more if the cheese or sauce is extra fancy. So what is a fair price for the restaurant to charge? I bet some here think that they should sell it for $1

I find it very interesting that the people that usually complain about pricing have no background in economics nor do they have any first hand experience in running a company or making any sort of product that is resold. Yes, we would ALL like to see everything be as cheap as possible, and yes some companies charge far too much for what they provide (like the 5% and $1 something surcharge that AmEx would charge us per order if we accepted AmEx ), but if we don't make money then we are out of business. And then... you wouldn't be able to buy the next Combat Mission at any price shy of a couple hundred thousand dollars So think of the $45 price of the game as being a good bargain vs. the alternative.

Steve

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout:

If American cars are "crap", as you indicated, then they will fail in the market. But how can one truly guage the quality if they are not allowed to be sold?

Cav

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it weren't for easy availability at dealerships and for image-based advertising, that might be true. My wife and I discovered that in Canada it is easier to buy a new car than to rent one for a couple of days. You don't need as much ID to buy a car, and the car itself is used as collateral for the loan.

Unfortunately most people don't care about publications like Consumer Report. People still buy Cadillacs and Corvettes, even though they consistently rate Poor to Very Poor in terms of quality.

But then not everyone buys cars for quality.

Business owner at least tend to lease their Cadillacs, for tax deduction purposes and because then they don't have to worry so much about quality, it becomes the dealership's problem.

In another economic sphere, for example here in Canada they just restored healthcare funding to 1994 levels (barely), but no one is currently measuring health outcomes -- which procedures in the health system actually help patients vs. those that do not. So the money is going into infrastructure, general funding for medical and nursing services, etc. but no one has ever bothered to measure what helps patients and what doesn't. They are going by "experience" and by the political crisis of the day. Government asks lobby groups what the health priorities are, as well as opinion polls of course.

It often comes back to that, doesn't it -- "products that do well in the market do well because they successfully fill a need" -- but people can be misled into believing they are being served by products, and that boosts sales.

All sorts of tricks are used -- addict people, make people associate opposites (alcohol and fun when alcohol in fact is a depressant), who knows what else. Emotion instead of information, like on billboards.

Political and economic models are just that, models. In life no country is truly "capitalist" or "socialist" or whatever other models exist out there, they are a mix of things.

Currently I would argue that capitalism is on the decline because of all the mergers and takeovers that have taken place. At least the capitalism people usually picture, with many small to medium companies competing for limited customer dollars. We now have oligopolies and monopolies (monopolies are not illegal in the U.S.). Because these firms are so big, they can mold customers' perceptions to "create new markets". In other cases they can force customers to buy their products, as Microsoft started doing by forcing people to upgrade their software all the time.

I am not going to continue this debate, it can probably go on as long as the Peng thread on this board.

I just want to play CM, and maybe SFC. (Geez why did I take a day off from work?!)

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

This is so true. Anybody here eat out at all? In the US a cheese pizza costs between $8 and $16 dollars, depending on where you order (boonies vs. Manhattan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Australia, the cheapest Family size Pizza is about $6.20, with the better ones up around the $12.00 mark. There is also a $2 surcharge for delivery.

So if you North americans want a cheap Pizza, order Australian!

errr..but dont blame me if it's cold by the time it's delivered!

Mace

[Guest barrold713]

The references to Capitalism are basically a misnomer since this is the description given to what should properly be termed a free market economy by Marx and Engels. The reason for mentioning it is that this term provides a prejorative connotation to the market.

It is a useless task to argue the merits of the various systems, especially when the results in the real world are so evident. Arguing against reality is a sure symptom of ideological poisoning.

The plain fact is that innovations on the lines of CM are being made in areas where entreprenuerism is not punished by confiscatory taxes and burdensome regulation. If you want a less expensive anything make it easier for the producer of the commodity to make money from it.

Steve and Charles have to figure on the amount of money they will get to keep out of the $45 USD when all of their costs including taxes are added up. Since they are hemmed in by the need to make more money than it costs to produce and distribute, but not overprice the program beyond the perceived and actual value to the market.

This game hopefully makes enough money to fuel the growth of BTS and allow CM2 to contain the features and functionality that we would all love to see. If they don't make enough profit, we will not have the chance to see the Eastern Front in the way so many long term gamers have itched to see it recreated. Of course if they make so much money that they become giant ego maniac freaks and buy a bunch of Ferrari's like some guy I remember putting out something cool a few years back that would not be a good thing either I suppose. Then the hype for the product would be overwhelming and the result underwhelming.

------------------

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

- Ben Franklin

[Mick_Oz]

Exchange rates are cruel if you're on the wrong end. Not the fault of BTS. As a dual national (US & Australian) living in Sydney, I sure do miss those cheap consumer prices.

But I gladly forked over my $90 and CM has hardly left my D Drive. If it had cost twice that, I would have paid it...

To make matters worse ..I've just shelled out big time for a P-3 866 with a GE Force 2 card and a 19" monitor. I'm poor but in heaven. And my wife still loves me... I think.

[Aussie Smith]

Well as a holder of a Batchelor of Business Degree I feel I can comment on some of these points:-

There is really no such animal as "The Free Market" you see as most of the major economies of the world are in some way protectionist. US, Japan, Germany, Sth Korea and France still have tariff barriers etc.

This is "modus operandi - normal" for global economies as creating a limited market provides a basis of underpinning their own economy - elasticity of supply and demand - keep demand high - supply low keeps price at a higher rate etc. The US economy being so large creates a perception of a stable currency regime - which it is - however, you will notice that the US dollar is also fragile to market forces as the Japanese currency crisis proved in 98 where the US pored billions into buying the Yen to halt a dramatic fall in the value of the US dollar as a flow on. Countries like Australia do not have the GDP or purchasing power to effect economies of countries of this size - hence we suffer much more visually in the up and down nature of our currency.

The Achilles heel of powerhouse economies is demonstrated when primary industry in their country suffers and they then rely on industry from other countries to supply this demand - aka the US wheat crisis of 89-90 where the wheat production of the US failed due to drought and Australia benefited from excess wheat sales - the dollar got to 78 cents US.

In the end countries like Australia will always be at the mercy of major economies, it’s a sad fact but in the era of Global market forces all countries will in some way or another be at the whim of supply and demand and the bigger economies will invariably do better in this environment.

So console yourselves (it terrifies me with its potential as the world as a whole will suffer) with the fact that if a virus is ever created that will stop the computer systems of the US stock exchange - then the Depression of the 30's will be but a drop in the ocean to what would happen now (remember there is more money being electrically transmitted at any one time over this system than actually exists - you don't need to be Einstein to see what the result would be).

Give us 20 years and all these problems will not be for Gov'ts to worry about - but the Mega-Corporations who will dominate the economies of not 1 country but countries.

Now what next - oh yes CM - now where is that turn that I will destroy Mace's infantry

[Buzzer]

I gladly paid the 45+10$ here in Norway...its worth every krone...

--------------------------------------------

"Everything is big over there, even the hospital bills"

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aussie Smith:

Well as a holder of a Batchelor of Business Degree I feel I can comment on some of these points:-

extremely large snip

Now what next - oh yes CM - now where is that turn that I will destroy Mace's infantry <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very intelligent and thought evoking, Craig! It explains your lack or activity during the weekend, time obviously spent on your treatise!

However, I felt it was spoilt only by that immature taunt at the end to which I must respond: as a holder of Batchelor of Physical Sciences (Hons), , I am now thinking about introducing a Nuclear option into our current CMBO PBEM!

Mace

[Aussie Smith]

Ok Mace

That does it - it's time to release, Wadderwick no Wroger, no Bwian.......

And I shall have my Centurions (Volkstrum) strike you very wuffly.....

Craig

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aussie Smith:

it's time to release, Wadderwick no Wroger, no Bwian.......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

welease, not release!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And I shall have my Centurions (Volkstrum) strike you very wuffly.....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Centuwions!

Volkstwum!

Stwike!

Sheeeesh, do I have to do everything around here!

Mace, the Knight who goes 'Ni'!

[Aussie Smith]

Mace

Are you sure you weren’t dropped on your head when you were a baby

"Mace's Twoops bwavely wan away away - bwave bwave Mace's twoops"

Aussie

[This message has been edited by Aussie Smith (edited 09-18-2000).]

[Mace]

Frequently, Aussie Smith. Thank you for asking!

Just as well it was on my head, or I would have been in serious trouble!

Mace