Thought you all might be interested in this ...

[Kraut]

Since most of you *probably* don't visit any CC boards, i'm gonna post this retirement speech from a marine colonel here. It's very interesting and pretty much shows in what pityful state our armed forces are in (meaning the US forces of course ).

Subject: Retirement Speech

The following is the retirement address of Marine Col Wayne Shaw who retired recently from Quantico after more than 28 years of service.

A Farewell to the Corps

Colonel Wayne Shaw, USMC, Quantico, Virginia

In recent years I’ve heard many Marines on the occasion of retirements, farewells, promotions and changes of command refer to the “fun” they’ve had in the Marine Corps. “I loved every day of it and had a lot of fun” has been voiced far too often. Their definition of “fun” must be radically different from mine. Since first signing my name on the dotted line 28 ½ years ago I have had very little fun.

Devoting my entire physical and mental energies training to kill the young men of some other country was not fun. Worrying about how many of my own men might die or return home maimed was not fun. Knowing that we did not have the money or time to train as best we should have, was not fun either.

It was no fun to be separated from my wife for months on end, nor was it fun to freeze at night in snow and rain and mud. It was not much fun to miss my father’s funeral because my Battalion Commander was convinced our peacetime training deployment just couldn’t succeed without me.

Missing countless school and athletic events my sons very much wanted me to see was not much fun either. Not being at my son’s high school graduation wasn’t fun. Somehow it didn’t seem like fun when the movers showed up with day laborers from the street corner and the destroyed personal effects were predictable from folks who couldn’t hold a job. The lost and damaged items, often irreplaceable family heirlooms weren’t much fun to try to “replace” for pennies on the dollar.

There wasn’t much fun for a Colonel with a family of four to live in a 1200 sq. ft apartment with one bathroom that no welfare family would have moved into.

It was not much fun to watch the downsizing of the services after Desert Storm as we handed out pink slips to men who risked their lives just weeks before. It has not been much fun to watch mid-grade officers and senior Staff NCO’s, after living frugal lives and investing money where they could, realize that they cannot afford to send their sons and daughters to college.

Nor do I consider it much fun to reflect on the fact that our medical system is simply broken. It is not much fun to watch my Marines board helicopters that are just too old and train with gear that just isn’t what it should be anymore. It is not much fun to receive the advanced copies of promotion results and call those who have been passed over for promotion.

It just wasn’t much fun to watch the infrastructure at our bases and stations sink deeper into the abyss because funding wasn’t provided for the latest “crisis.” It just wasn’t much fun to discharge good Marines for being a few pounds overweight and have to reenlist Marines who were HIV positive and not world-wide deployable.

It sure wasn’t much fun to look at the dead Marines in the wake of the Beirut bombing and Mogadishu fiascoes and ask yourself what in the hell we were doing there. I could go on and on. There hasn’t been much fun in a career that spans a quarter century of frustration, sacrifice and work.

So, why did you serve you might ask? Let me answer that : I joined the service out of a profound sense of patriotism. As the son of a career Air Force Senior NCO I grew up on military bases often within minutes flying time from Soviet airfields in East Germany. I remember the Cuban Missile crisis, the construction of the Berlin Wall, the nuclear attack drills in school and was not many miles away when Soviet Tanks crushed the aspirations of citizens in Czechoslovakia. To me there was never any doubt that our great Republic and the last best hope of free people needed to prevail in this ultimate contest. I knew I had to serve.

When our nation was in turmoil over our involvement in Vietnam I knew that we were right in the macro strategic sense and in the moral sense, even if in the execution we may have been flawed. I still believe to this day that we did the right thing. Many of our elites in the nation today continue to justify their opposition in spite of all evidence that shows they were wrong and their motives either naive or worse. This nation needed to survive and I was going to join others like me to ensure it did. We joined long before anyone had ever referred to service in the infantry units of the Marine Corps as an “opportunity.” We knew the pay was lousy, the work hard and the rewards would be few. We had a cause, we knew we were right and we were willing when others were not. Even without a direct threat to our Nation, many still join and serve for patriotic reasons.

I joined the Marines out of a sense of adventure. I expected to go to foreign countries and do challenging things. I expected that, should I stick around, my responsibilities would grow as would my rewards. It was exciting to be given missions and great Marines to be responsible for.

Finally, I joined for the camaraderie. I expected to lead good men and be lead by good men. Marines who would speak frankly and freely, follow orders once the decision was made and who would place the success of the mission above all else. Marines who would be willing to sacrifice for this great nation. These were men I could trust with anything and they could trust me.

It was the camaraderie that sustained me when the adventure had faded and the patriotism was tested. I was a Marine for all of these years because it was necessary, because it was rewarding, because our nation needed individuals like us and because I liked and admired the Marines I served with.....but it sure wasn’t fun.

I am leaving active service soon and am filled with some real concerns for the future of our Marine Corps and even more so for the other services. I have two sons who are on the path to becoming Marine Officers themselves and I am concerned about their future and that of their fellow Marines, sailors, airmen and soldiers. We in the Corps have the least of the problems but will not be able to survive in a sick DOD. We have gone from a draft motivated force to an all volunteer force to the current professional force without the senior leadership being fully aware of the implications. Some of our ills can be traced to the fact that our senior leadership doesn’t understand the modern Marine or service member. I can tell you that the 18 year old who walks through our door is a far different individual with different motivations than those just ten years ago.

Let me generalize for a moment. The young men from the middle class in the suburbs come in to “Rambo” for a while. He has a home to return to if need be and Mom has left his room unchanged. In the back of his mind he has some thoughts of a career if he likes it or it is rewarding.

The minorities and females are looking for some skills training but also have considered a career if “things work out.” They have come to serve their country but only in a very indirect way. They have not joined for the veterans benefits because those have been truncated to the point where they are useless. No matter what they do, there is no way it will pay for college and the old VA home loan is not competitive either. There are no real veteran’s benefits anymore..... It is that simple, and our senior leadership has their head in the sand if they think otherwise. As they progress through their initial enlistment’s that are four years or more now, many conclude that they will not be competitive enough to make it a 20 year career or don’t want to endure the sacrifices required. At that point they decide that it is time to get on with the rest of their lives and the result is the high first term attrition we currently have to deal with. The thought of a less than honorable discharge holds no fear whatsoever for most. It is a paper tiger. Twenty years ago an individual could serve two years and walk away with a very attractive amount of Veterans benefits that could not be matched by any other sector or business in the country.

We have even seen those who serve long enough lose benefits as we stamped from weaker program to weaker program. This must be reversed. We need a viable and competitive GI Bill that is grandfathered when you enter the service, is predicated on an honorable discharge and has increasing benefits for longer service so we can fill the mid grade ranks with quality people.

We must do this to stop the hemorrhage of first term attrition and to reestablish good faith and fairness. It will allow us to reenlist a few more and enlist a few less.

The modern service member is well read and informed. He knows more about strategy, diplomacy and current events that Captains knew when I first joined. He reads national newspapers and professional journals and is tuned into CNN. Gone are the days of the PFC who sat in Butzbach in the Fulda Gap or Camp Schwab on Okinawa and scanned the Stars and Stripes sports page and listened to AFN. Yet our senior leadership continue to treat him like a moron from the hinterland who wouldn’t understand what goes on. He is in the service because he wants to be and not because he can’t get a job in the steel mill. Three hots and a cot are not what he is here for. The Grunts and other combat arms guys aren’t here for the “training and skills” either.

He is remarkably well disciplined in that he does what he is told to do even though he knows it is stupid. He is very stoic, but not blind. Yet I see senior leaders all of the time who pile more on. One should remind them that their first platoon in 1968 would have told them to stick it where the sun doesn’t shine. These new Warriors only think it.......He is well aware of the moral cowardice of his seniors and their habit of taking the easy way out that results in more pain and work for their subordinates.

This must be reversed. The senior leadership must have the morale courage to stop the misuse and abuse of the current force. The force is too small, stretched too thin and too poorly funded. These deficiencies are made up on the backs of the Marines, sailors, airmen and soldiers. The troops are the best we’ve ever had and that is no reason to drive them into the dirt.

Our equipment and infrastructure is shot. There is no other way to put it. We must reinvest immediately and not just on the big ticket items like the F-22. That is the equivalent of buying a new sofa when the roof leaks and the termites are wrecking the structure.

Finally let me spend a minute talking about camaraderie and leadership. I stayed a Marine because I had great leaders early on. They were men of great character without preaching, men of courage without ragging, men of humor without rancor. They were men who believed in me and I in them.

They encouraged me without being condescending. We were part of a team and they cared little for promotions, political correctness or who your father was.

They were well educated renaissance men who were equally at home in the White House or visiting a sick Marine’s child in a trailer park. They could talk to a bar maid or a baroness with equal ease and make each feel like a lady. They didn’t much tolerate excuses or liars or those with too much ambition for promotion.

Someone once told me that Priests do the Lord’s work and don’t plan to be the Pope. They were in touch with their Marines and supportive of their seniors. They voiced their opinions freely and without retribution from above. They probably drank too much and had an eye for beautiful women as long as they weren’t someone’s wife or a subordinate.

You could trust them with your life, your wife or your wallet. Some of these great leaders were not my superiors --- some were my Marines. We need more like them at the senior levels of Government and military leadership today. It is indeed sad when senior defense officials and Generals say things on TV they themselves don’t believe and every service member knows they are lying. It is sad how out of touch with our society some of our Generals are. Ask some general you know these ten questions:

1. How much does a PFC. make per month?

2. How big is the gas tank on a Hummvee?

3. Who is your Congressman and who are your two Senators?

4 Name one band that your men listen to.

5. Name one book on the NY times best seller list.

6. Who won the last Superbowl?

7. What is the best selling car in America?

8. What is the WWF?

9. When did you last trust your subordinates enough to take ten days leave?

10. What is the leave balance of your most immediate subordinate?

We all know they won’t get two right and therein lies the problem. We are in the midst of monumental leadership failure at the senior levels. Just recently Gen Shelton (CJCS) testified that he didn’t know we had a readiness problem or pay problems.... Can you imagine that level of isolation?

We must fix our own leadership problems soon. Quality of life is paid lip service and everyone below the rank of Col. knows it. We need tough, realistic and challenging training. But we don’t need low pay, no medical benefits and ghetto housing. There is only so much our morality should allow us to ask of families. Isn’t it bad enough that we ask the service members to sacrifice their lives without asking their families to sacrifice their education and well being too? We put our troops on guilt trips when we tell them about how many died for this country and no hot water in housing is surely a small sacrifice to make. “Men have died and you have the guts to complain about lack of medical care for your kids?” The nation has been in an economic boom for damn near twenty years now, yet we expect folks in the military to live like lower middle class folks lived in the mid fifties.

In 1974 a 2nd Lt. could by a Corvette for less than his annual salary. Today, you can’t buy a Corvette on a Major’s annual salary. I can give you 100 other examples...A NROTC midshipman on scholarship got $100 a month in 1975. He or she still gets $100 in 1999. No raise in 25 years? The QOL life piece must be fixed. The Force sees this as a truth teller and the truth is not good.

I stayed a Marine despite the erosion of benefits, the sacrifices of my wife and children, the betrayal of our junior troops and the declining quality of life because of great leaders, and the threat to our way of life by a truly evil empire that no longer exists. I want men to stay in the future.

We must reverse these trends. There will be a new “evil empire” eventually. Sacrifices will need to be made and perhaps many things cannot change but first and foremost we must fix our leadership problems. The rest will take care of itself. If we can only fix the leadership problem....Then, I still can’t promise you “fun” but I can promise you the reward and satisfaction of being able to look into the mirror for the rest of your life and being able to say: “I gave more to America than I ever took from America....and I am proud of it.”

Semper Fi and God Bless you

[slazzari]

Having been there and done that (Just not for _nearly_ as long as the Col.), I just have one thing to say.

Amen.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

I once heard that the military makes Geniuses out of Idiots and Idiots out of Geniuses. I for one, am pretty damn close to a Genius , and did not want to be turned into or be treated like an Idiot. So I never joined for that very reason. I got my college degree the ol' fashion way. I went in as a traditional student, just out of High school.

And you think that that line of Bull**** they feed people about starting out with a higher rank after already obtaining a college degree was right? I knew better than that, I ain't stupid!

Also I have a real world job experience where a ex-Navy SEAL was hired into a leadership position into a job he knew NOTHING about. And so he barked orders at the rest of us like we were raw recruits. Barking time deadlines in a job that one NEVER knows what is going to happen. And what job is this? A core drilling job. He was hired as the on-site Geologist. Oh, he went on to get his degree, but had no clue on the art of drilling. As with core drilling, you NEVER know what you'll run into when drilling a hundred foot hole in bedrock, so as to tell us when we should get done with that hole was impossible for us to predict. That's why we drilled the freaking holes...to see what was there! His whole attitude drove not only me away from the job, but also at least one more guy that I know of. (We only had about 6 guys on the crews at that time anyway.)

[SS_PanzerLeader]

OMG !!! ROFLMFAO

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Guest Seimerst]

<taking a deep breath> I can fully appreciate the exact sentiments the Marine Colonel stated. He and I have been on the same path-- I, a year longer. Every word of his rings with the truth-- both the good words and the bad ones. While my experiences are of the US Army Special Forces flavor, they share many common points. However, despite all the negatives, and he did a marvelous job of capturing many of them, I would still do it again if offered the chance. I am sorry that OB&G had a negative experience-- Lord knows there are plenty of those kind of bosses around-- in and out of uniform. I have had some success just following the golden rule. In 29 years of service, I have only had to issue one direct order. Serving our country on freedom's frontier is a thankless calling, you draw your satisfaction from things other than the size of your paycheck and other "usual" measures of success. The sacrifices are considerable (as the Colonel pointed out) and the rewards are intangible. The USMC is just a little less now for his leaving-- let's hope he was able to clone a replacement. I, for one, honor my comrade in arms for his service and sacrifice, I wish him "fair winds and following seas" <saluting>.

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The USMC is just a little less now for his leaving-- let's hope he was able to clone a replacement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Corps, in which I served, is not less for his leaving, but better for having him. There is a saying among Marines... "once a Marine, always a Marine." His replacement is passing through Quantico, Paris Island or SanDiago right now. the one thing that the Marines have been able to keep alive thoughout their history is their traditions and esprit de corps.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I wish him "fair winds and following seas" .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To this I add... Semper Fi!

[Jochen]

No word to speak about the German Army (Bundeswehr).

Greetings from Germany

Jochen

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

Maybe I need to mention that this ex-Navy SEAL dude was only about 28 or 29 years old at the time from what I could gather. He was by no means a career dude. He was only in for the SEAL minimum. He said that he was in college at first. Got all pumped when Desert Storm was going on. Joined up. Became a SEAL, then did his stint, then dropped out. Went back to college to finish his degree. I first met him in Dec. '98, so just how many years could he have been in the service? Not too many from what I could calculate.

Sounds like he was an Idiot which was turned into a Genius.

[Guest entec]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts:

Sounds like he was an Idiot which was turned into a Genius.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's most likly the fact that you bring out the best in most people OB&G . Just reading your posts shows that!

[This message has been edited by entec (edited 04-21-2000).]

[Strat]

I don't know what the requirement is for someone to enter the military as an officer. I assume it is a bachelor degree or someone working on a college degree, not finished yet but will finish up in the service. One difference I have seen is, the military offers much better retirement benefits than any civilian equivalent occupation. All that have served in the military for 20 to 30 yearsand retire, retire with a substantial income that they will receive for the rest of thier lives. They retire with free, full medical benefits, can purchase discounted food and other items at military facilities to name a few.

In the civilian sector if an employee is not in the upper managemnet and retires, they receive whatever money that they have saved in the form of a 401K and/or company profit sharing plan. For most companies the amount drawn for retirement is substantially less than an equivalent military occupation and usually runs out before the employee dies. If the retiring employee decides to have medical benefits he/she can continue making payments to their group health plan.

So, don't complain. You are much better off than most. I was in the US Army in the early 70's and I found it to be a very bad experience. Shoddy equipment that didn't work, bad troop management, 0 Morale. Management that didn't have a clue about anything. If the Soviets had decided to invade Europe at that time, they would have pushed the US Army into the Atlantic within days.

Strat

[Moon]

Jochen, you're right. When I was in the Bundeswehr, we were always envious at the much better trained and much better equipped US Army guys. That should tell enough about the state of the Bundeswehr... doh!

[Kraut]

So strat, if the military "offers much better retirement benefits than any civilian equivalent occupation", then why doesn't anyone want to re-enlist and serve another 20 to 30 years so they can get all these "wonderful" benefits you talk about?

What does the early 70's have to do with the state of the military today?

MK

[EScurlock]

Originally posted by Strat:

I don't know what the requirement is for someone to enter the military as an officer. I assume it is a bachelor degree

Answer: Bachelors degreeor

All that have served in the military for 20 to 30 yearsand retire, retire with a substantial income that they will receive for the rest of thier lives.

Answer: My retirement @ 20 years is only enough to help me get by while starting a brand new career. My retirement pay will not be substantially more than a social security check. It'll pay the mortgage on a "starter house" that I would of had paid off by now if I had a regular job and hadn't been bounced all over the world from one base to another.

They retire with free, full medical benefits, can purchase discounted food and other items at military facilities to name a few.

Rebutal: you can get beter deals at "SAMS", KMart, Wal-MArt or "Costco" to name a few. If you live near a military facility you'll see lots of military people doing most of there shopping there as apposed to the Commisary or BX.

Rebutal: The medical benifits are on a space available basis only, and if you have to see a real medical profesional downtown it definately isn't free. The vast majority of "doctors" we see for our health needs are realy just nurses with the fancy job title "practisioning nurse". I'm not even sure such an arrangement is even legal in the civilian medical community.

In the civilian sector if an employee is not in the upper managemnet and retires, they receive whatever money that they have saved in the form of a 401K and/or company profit sharing plan. For most companies the amount drawn for retirement is substantially less than an equivalent military occupation and usually runs out before the employee dies. If the retiring employee decides to have medical benefits he/she can continue making payments to their group health plan.

Rebutal: I know more than one Chief Master Sergeant who retired under 30 becouse those humble 401K's well outperform any increased retirement benifit sticking it out in the military would provide them. They weren't beinging unpatriotic, they just have kids to send to college.

I'm a Master Sergeant with 17 years military experience. If god and country lets me, I'll have my bachelors degree in accounting by the time I retire. I'll be making more $ after 1 or 2 years as an accountant, than after 20 years as a military profesional. You don't serve 20 years of your life in the military becouse of the benifits.

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He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins.

[Strat]

I don't know how to paste a quote. This is in reply to Kraut's post.

Kraut said:

So strat, if the military "offers much better retirement benefits than any civilian equivalent occupation", then why doesn't anyone want to re-enlist and serve another 20 to 30 years so they can get all these "wonderful" benefits you talk about?

The following may be a few reasons for non-reenlistment:

1. Vaccines against biological warfare.

a. If the biological weapons don't kill ya the vaccine probably will later on.

2. Women rights movement.

a. What does a woman do in a combat situation? Fall down and spread their legs?

3. Having to comply with general military bull****.

a. Being ordered to do something by some moron that thinks he is a god because he was promoted first.

4. Actions with no reason.

a. Action: Being sent to do some brainless task.

b. Reason: None

Military personnel have been used as guinea pigs for everything from nuclear radiation to LSD exposure.

An example: During the Vietnam war numerous helicopter pilots were ordered to fly troops into areas that had been sprayed by a defoliant(sp?)i.e. Agent Orange. Most of these troops developed cancer from exposure in later years.

As for what does the military of the 70's have to do with todays military, not much. It doesn't appear to have changed much. Unless there is a specific project generated by politicians, as an attempt to boost thier prestige among the voters, they have no reason to shovel money into the military sector.

Strat

[Mark IV]

Strat: for a guy who's been out for 20 years, you still got some attitude...

The average personnel in the armed forces of today are MUCH better and more professional than we were in the '70s. Did you read the post which started this thread?

We mistreat the peacetime military and we end up getting what we pay for. This is actually a regular cycle- pay fails to keep up with reality, best and the brightest leave for private sector, manpower falls to unacceptable level, pay-and-bennie raise.

Your list of "reasons" is, well, odd. If biological warfare vaccines are the problem, they shouldn't sign up in the first place (nor would they wish to deploy unvaccinated where nasties plan to USE bios, would they?).

As for the guinea pigs, you might be thinking about the nuke experiments in the '50s. Agent Orange was not used experimentally on soldiers; it was used to defoliate jungles into which the soldiers were later sent. "Most" of the soldiers did not develop cancer. There are better forums to discuss this on.

Women's rights and issues are the reason people are leaving military service? Well, the military is often used for SOCIAL experimentation and I can't say it's done it any good. But no one is leaving for that reason.

The military is not for everybody and you clearly didn't like it. Some people respond to challenge and discipline better than others. It's our duty to compensate those who do, appropriately.

[Thomas Norton]

Col. Shaw is talking about the careerism that is taking over and killing the military. He does not mention Gen. Gray who was able check it for a time in Corp. I was there, I know.

We need to return to the leadership of

Gen. Gray.

We had lived through the death of all those Marines. Then, KP Kelly tells the world he was NOT in the chain of command! In that second, we all knew. Gen. Gray is one of the most respected (remember what he did when our Marines were burned in Japan), he was one of us.

There are more men in our Corp like Gen. Grey. We Marines will survive. Col. Shaw knows this.

But, the day is coming when the American culture will not want us too.

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"The Legitimate object of war is a more perfect peace."

[MCab]

Here's a http://www.fredoneverything.com/Claudia.html

Peace,

MCab

[Peterk]

That was a great speech. I'm not a marine or former marine or even american, but was very touched by his passion and honesty and courage in maiing those comments. Thanks for posting.

p.

[Kraut]

Weird double-post ...

[This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 04-22-2000).]

[Fionn]

Aye, professional military men have almost uniformly impressed me during conversations with them.

Sure there's a few morons but the vast majority of officers I've talked to have been surprisingly methodical, insightful and outstandingly competent. I only have to look at the performance of some of the ex-military members of the GMs of the CMMC to see that you don't have too much to worry about if you have a good, professional military ( regardless of pay etc).

If war comes the cream rises to the top as the unfit officers scramble to get to the rear or are replaced.

[Kraut]

Strat, your reasons are completely ludicrous, and you're straying off topic. Did you even read the retirement speech i posted? I don't think you did ...

MK

[Strat]

Kraut:

Just a brief scan. I didn't study it. It came to me that you didn't write it after my first post on this topic.

Anyway, when will be the release date for CM. Will BTS be able to keep up with order demands? I don't plan to order till the game is released. Hope there aren't any major bugs that weren't caught before release.

Strat

[Guest PopFreak11]

As a former Marine, it was a great speach. Its only too bad he had to wait until he retired until he made it.

Until the marine Corps and other branches allow senior and junior marines to voice their opinions and ideas without the fear of their career being ruined I'm afraid things wont get to mutch better.

Pop

[Guest MantaRay]

Hey Strat, shut your pie hole man. So you were in the Army in the 70's, big whoop. If I would have stayed in 8 more years i could have received my retirement, but in the couple years that i have been out, I have already made more money than I would have in 20 years of military service. And man they would have had to kill me before I went to a VA Hospital. Even when I screwed my knee up, I went to an outside doctor.

And I didnt leave because I hated the Army, or was worried about the pay or living conditions. I left because my accident was caused by faulty equipment. Hard to have confidence in your abilities if you arent sure you will live through training excercises. And I am not the only one from my unit to have felt this way.

And for all of you who have not done it, go visit a VA Hospital someday and just listen to some of these poor guys and the crappy care they get there. Very few will be positive about it I promise.

But, I still loved my time in the service for the most part, but not because getting shot at and shooting people is fun, but because I learned,saw,felt, and experienced things from a perspective that I could have never achieved in civilian life. And no amount of money could have bought this for me, and when my wifes' little brothers are old enough to join up, I am all for it. Hey, maybe even one of them will make a career of it.

Ray

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MantaRays 5 Pages

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[Fionn]

Ray,

You got yourself banned once before for abusive language and I'm quite sure telling someone to "shut your pie hole" more than meets the standards set down for excessive abusive language.

Just ignore the thread if it annoys you. Are you really prepared to get banned again just so you can hurl abuse at someone?