Panzerfausts and HQ units

[Guest Username:]

I notice that fausts are not distributed to platoon or company HQs. This seems unrealistic as these units if any would have them.

Will there be tank hunter squads by the way?

Lewis

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

Hey Lewis!

Out of curiosity, why would HQ units be issued AT-weapons? In general?

Yes, tank hunter squads are Bazooka Teams and Panzerschreck Teams.

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yes, tank hunter squads are Bazooka Teams and Panzerschreck Teams.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, he refers to the practice the Germans had of sending out special teams of tank hunters. Usually armed with Fausts, Tellermines, satchel charges, etc

[Guest Username:]

Cause HQ units were responsible for the defense.

Berli is right. I forget the long german word for it but its basically a tank killer squad. Panzerfausts, Shrecks, magmines, bundlecharges, guts.. whatever it took to stop a tank. Usually they existed at all levels too.

Lewis

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

Are you talking about Pionere squads?? The ones from the Panzer General series that were armed with 'schrecks/'fausts and shatchel charges??

And if so, I think I remember seeing them on the German Infantry purchasing screen in the editor from a picture on Wild Bill's Raiders editor feature that ran a while back.

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"When in doubt...shell."

[argie]

The Pioneres were a kind of combat engineers. Not such tank hunters squads which Lewis is referring at.

People, remember that a game must manage some level of abstraction. The HQ units is one of such abstractions.

Sorry by the really bad English.

Ariel

[Simon Fox]

I guess this falls into the category of super realism. Generally HQ units would not be expected to crawl around stalking tanks and weren't officially issued with such weapons.

Of course it makes for a pretty frustrating experience when your conscript schrek team cowers from some desultory suppressive fire while a veteran HQ sits idly by twiddling it's thumbs while an oblivious Sherman trundles by. Bitter? Who me?

But you have to draw the line somewhere and at the moment it's not possible for units to swap weapons/ammo etc. It may not be completely realistic but the alternative would seem quite complex to implement and was obviously placed in the to hard basket oops! I mean 'on the list'

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"Nah, I'm totally straight-laced. I just play a pervert on the net." - Fionn

[argie]

As an interesting note, I read somewhere (as ever, I don't remember where ) about an English HQ unit carrying 4 (yes, FOUR) captured MG 42s. When CM simulates this kind of reak ocurrences, much more strange things gonna happens

Ariel

[Bullethead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Out of curiosity, why would HQ units be issued AT-weapons? In general?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the HMFIC is afraid of tanks and he gets dibs on all issued stuff.

I speak from personal experience. In the Gulf War, my CBR "platoon" (which numbered over 80 men) was divided into 8 tactical units and 3 HQ units (CO, XO, and platoon sergeant). Thus, a total of 11 units. We were issued 1 box of 6 LAAWs. 3 of these went to the HQ units. My tactical unit, at much greater risk of meeting tanks than any of the HQs, had to do without organic AT capability until we captured some RPGs.

Obviously, we thus ended up better equipped. However, there were some anxious moments (pissed-off tanks within 400m) before we acquired the RPGs.

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-Bullethead

"Mopping Up" means bayoneting the wounded

[This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 05-24-2000).]

[Guest Bobb]

A quick glance at a published in 1944 TO&E included 2 bazookas for batallion Hq. Did not see any issue for a Co. Hq. Seems to me a Hq is so vital to operations that one running about on the front lines would carry some tank defense about with them stronger than heels. Either scrounging about or taking an issue rocket launcher would fill that bill. Rear area company types regularly included AT capability in their TO&Es. After all, that is the primary tanker objective - to get into the rear areas.

[goodwood]

In the Australian Army often Hq units would hold Hvy & AT weapons as a reserve and some for defence.

Ron

[jgdpzr]

Lewis,

Are you referring to panzerjaegers(sic.)?

Seems like I've read about specialized units equipped with the weapons you mentioned (multiple shrecks, fausts, charges, mines, etc.). These were larger than just shreck teams and as you implied their whole mission was to actively pursue enemy armor once it was closely engaged with German forces. Or am I just imagining this?

[Guest Username:]

PanzerVernichtungstrupps

I believe there was squads of these guys at all levels. So there would be a squad at company, Bn, regt.

[Mattias]

The spring of ’44 saw the arrival of Panzerzerstörerzüge in the infantry regiments, as part of the Infanterie-Panzerjäger-Kompanie. Two of the four platoons were issued Panzeshcrecks while the other two kept their anti tank guns (Kriegsstärkenachweis Nr. 154b).

Each of the two Züge consisted of three Gruppen, they in turn subdivided into two Truppen of 6 men each armed with:

3 Panzerschreck + 30 rockets

5 Magnetic AT mines or Panzerfausts

20 Flash charges (for blinding the opponent)

Their mission was, not surprisingly, to protect the regiment from enemy tanks. SOP was to whenever possible operate within the Gruppe formation, i.e. 6 Panzerschreck creating a “nest” with mutually supporting all round fire. Optimally the defence was built in such a way that the AT-guns overlapped or at least complemented the fire from the Panzerzerstörergruppen.

On the eastern front special Panzerzerstörerbattalionen were set up organised with 3 Kompanien, each comprising of tree Züge, similar to the ones found in the Infantry regiment organisation.

In the end the problem for the Panzerschreck was that in many cases had to replace more capable but scarce AT guns, instead of merely supplementing them. A role in which it was adequate but hardly satisfactory.

A low point in the development of the anti tank forces in the German army was the bicycle mounted Panzer-Jagdkompanien. An officer, an NCO and eight Panzernahkämpfern armed with Sturmgewehren and Panzerfausts rode around the countryside looking for enemy tanks to, well, try to blow up.

M.

Oh, Reference: freely concocted from "Die deutsche Panzerjägertruppe 1935-1945", Fleischer und Eiermann.

[This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 05-24-2000).]

[Guest Schuggerbaby]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username::

PanzerVernichtungstrupps

I believe there was squads of these guys at all levels. So there would be a squad at company, Bn, regt. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the name you were looking for is " PanzerAbwehrtrupp".

I don't think they were part of a permanent unit organisation in WW2 and were formed on an ad hoc basis. In the Bundeswehr we formed them for training purposes and i've found recently a nice picture were on of our SPz ( Schützenpanzer) Marder was engulfed in flames after we hit it with two Molotov Coctails. Damn it, wish i had a scanner to post this picture! It looks amazing.

Schuggerbaby

[dalem]

Lewis-

I have no real-world experience in such matters, but from what I have read and researched, HQ units that were TO&Ed as having AT weapons seem to merely have been a distribution point for same. On paper I believe WWII U.S. Company Command elements "held" the bazookas for distribution as needed. I assume this practice was heavily modified in the field but can't say for sure.

I have no data on the tankhunter team question. I don't know what the game has planned for them either.

-dale