Guest Scott Clinton Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 This last weekend in a "Chance Encounter" game I had a US ½ squad toss a hand-grenade at a German squad they were exchanging fire with in the same woods. The grenade was long and it sailed (by my estimation) about four meters too long and exploded with no effect. What surprised me was that the units were 43 meters apart! That makes the 'grenade toss' a HEAVE of 47 meters (over 154 feet)! Damn fine toss IMO. What is the maximum distancea you guys have seen in the demo? ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Heilbrunn Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 You must have selected Ted Williams' squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hunt52 Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Some info: The distance from third base to first is 127 feet. It is not unreasonable to assume that a player will play behind the bad at third (unless they have *very* good health insurance ) so call it 130 feet. I am expected to make at least 95 out of 100 throws at that distance accurate to within a foot or two (and I am just a retired high school player...) I don't think it unreasonable at all for people to throw grenades at the 50 or even 60 or 70 meter marks. Now, I've never had anyone shoot at me whilst fielding, but throws of that range are not impossible. I max out at about 300 feet (error: 4 - 5 feet). I guess you just got lucky and ended up with a minor leaguer in that squad - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 I've heard that the Potato Masher HG achieved up to 100 metres in tests. CM generates an average of about 40 metres maximum range for a grenade toss. Obviously if it is downhill then it goes a bit farther, uphill a bit less. I think 40 metres is pretty reasonable though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EScurlock Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunt52: Some info: I don't think it unreasonable at all for people to throw grenades at the 50 or even 60 or 70 meter marks. - Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You ever throw one of those d***** things? The German grenade may be light enough to be thrown, but the American grenades almost have to be shotputted. You either shot-put it or throw it with a long straight arm arch. If you attemt to throw it in a normal fashion you are absolutely guaranteed to rip your arm out of whack. We're talking major tendon and ligament damage here. I new one guy in my battery that could get one of those things 40 meters, 30 would be the max for the average Joe. As far as accuracy is concerned, like I mentioned above, you can't throw one in a normal fashion, so accuracy suffers. ------------------ He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 I second EScrulock's sentiment on throwing grenades. They're damned heavy (dense) and not quite the same as throwing a baseball. If someone is able to throw it 40m then there's a good chance it won't be too accurate. In bootcamp we were instructed to throw them "like footballs" (uh.. that's what MY instructor told us ). The typical "Hollywood grenade toss" is a tad bit unrealistic. If you're a good baseball pitcher though, I could see the advantage to throwing a grenade a bit further and more accurately than your average joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hunt52 Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 anyone know the mass in ounces? this would I think affect the range the most! (but more arm muscles can't hurt! ) - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 What's an "ounce"? What's "baseball"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 M2A1 (pineapple) 1.31lb, 21oz, .6kg M3A (cylindrical) .84lb, 13.4oz, .28kg Too lazy to look up weights of German grenades. Baseball characteristics per official rules: "1.09 The ball shall be a sphere formed by yarn wound around a small core of cork, rubber or similar material, covered with two stripes of white horsehide or cowhide, tightly stitched together. It shall weigh not less than five nor more than 5 1/4 ounces avoirdupois and measure not less than nine nor more than 9 1/4 inches in circumference." Jason [This message has been edited by guachi (edited 03-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Hey Linkboy you forgot something ------------------ "Heaven sent and hell bent Over the mountain tops we go Just like all the other GI Joes EE-AY-EE-AY adios!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Hmmm... I took that throw to be an aberration. I would tend to think 40m as an average would be a little on the long side. Now, I have never 'tossed' a live one but I have tossed a dummy quite a few times. But what surprised me was not entirely the range, but the distance considering the fact that it was thrown THROUGH "Scattered Trees" & "Woods". I assume that this type of terrain could 'hinder' a throw, right? Again, I am perfectly fine with this particular throw...but if it happens all the time... Also, BTW: German: Stielhandgrante 24 = 1.36 lbs. Length = 14" ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 As others have said, you dont throw a grenade but shotputt or 'hurl' it. I am experienced using modern US (M26?) grenades. My best was 30 meters. Someone else got near 40 meters. I doubt one would go 70 meters without destroying a humans arm. An airburst is more important anyway. An airburst at 30 meters is better than a throw of 40. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Something that just occured to me... This could possibly represent not only the throw...but the resulting 'roll'. A toss of 35-40m (a good throw by any rights) followed by a 'good bounce' of another 10m or so...It could happen. It was the longest toss I have heard so far. Anyone have any throws like this or further? (Who needs rifle grenades! ) ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard [This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 03-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 We usually 'grenaded' in sand lots with rubber tractor tires simulating foxholes. The grenades would just plop down. Another thing to consider is the grenaders posture. Is he standing or kneeling or prone? Being uphill with 'spherically' shaped grenades would be an advantage. As an anectode, the guy next to me wimped out and as he threw his grenade, he fainted and barely cleared the concrete wall in front of us. It really rang my bell when it went off. It was especially funny because he was a big loud mouthed bully. Again, a grenade is a shrapnel weapon and an air burst is very desirable against troops in the open. Troops dug in or in buildings, bunkers require direct hits/placement. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 nope, sounds about right. I averaged around 30meters on the range. Damn easy to throw your arm out too. Not like throwing a baseball at all. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 I am nearly certain we cut down the tossing ranges since the Beta Demo. The Germans can toss about 10m further than an Allied grenade IIRC. There is a random +/- on the range and I am pretty sure terrain is looked at. The adjusted ranges were suggested by Los I think. Man, that was a long time ago we tweaked that stuff Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 This just in... From Charles... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Remember that squads don't stand on the head of a pin, so this means the CENTERS of the squads are 40m apart, which means the men in the front of each squad are only about 20m apart. More grenades are thrown as the distance shortens.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Seems that the range adjustments were made prior to releasing the Beta Demo. Our first numbers were wild guesses. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick614 Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Tail wind and fast greens. ------------------ Rick614 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kettle Black Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 This is an excellent site if you're into German thingies that go boom. Has sections on most infantry weaponry, including grenades. http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust.htm To stir up an old hornets nest, the site has a very comprehensive page on our beloved panzerschreck. If it supports or doesn't support BTS decision to only let panzerschrecks "Move" I don't know but here are some snippets: "Production of the Panzerschreck had changed to this successor model in October 1943. The new Raketenpanzerbüchse 54 weighed 11 kg (24.2 lb.)(empty). It was also modified to fire the newly developed RPzB.Gr.4992 which with a modificaton of the propellant had a better practical range (usually cited at 180m). This ammunition too came in a summer and a winter version.The armor penetration of both RPzB.Gr. 4322 and 4992 was 230mm (9 in.), at a 60° impact angle this figure was reduced to 160mm (6.3 in.). The ammunition was transported in a carrying frame holding 5 rounds, the wooden supply crates contained 2 rounds." Now it doesn't say how much the new rockets weighed, the older version weighed: "The projectile used was the RPzB.Gr. 4322 (Raketenpanzerbüchsen-Granate / "Rocket Tank Rifle Round") that carried a shaped charge of 660g (23.3oz.) and weighed 3.30kg (7.27 lb.) there was a Sommer ("summer") (used in temperatures between -5° to +50° Celsius) and a Winter ("winter") (used in temperatures of -40° to +30° Celsius) version of the RPzB.Gr.4322 that accounted for the different thermic conditions." That would mean the loader carrying 16.5 kg of ammo. How this carrying frame was designed I can find no info, some sort of rucksack contraption perhaps? Note that only the supply crates are described as being made of wood. The gunner carried an 11 kg weapon. There is a pic a bit down on the panzerschreck page to the right with a panzerschreck team moving along a road. The loader(?) has at least one arm free. Now should BTS make the Pzk teams be able to run? No. Not in my opinion. The decision has been made and I don't know the parameters anyway. I just find this stuff interesting. Does anyone have a pic of the loader carrying frame? Kettle Black, Master of redundant posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rick614: Tail wind and fast greens. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Titanium core xtra distance grenade thrown by Sgt "Long" John Daly? Ethan ------------------ Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 To head of 'running panzerschrecks' at the pass check out this link - http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001926.html This thread gets a bit nasty and even has Schrodi!! Ignore the flames and check out the reasons schrecks can't run. Also, try http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001950.html for a little more technical information on the schreck and Puppchen provided by yours truly and Fionn. After reading the above threads it is astonishing how nasty some of the pre-Christmas threads were. Partly why I'm posting links is to prevent threads from degenerating like the the first one did. Ugghh! I don't want to see that kind of behavior again. Jason - third degree black belt in link-fu [This message has been edited by guachi (edited 03-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted March 28, 2000 Share Posted March 28, 2000 Kettle, I took several pictures of a Panzerschreck (and Panzerfausts ) on my recent visit to the Patton Museum and just by its sheer overall size and bulk (it is NOT streamlined at all and much longer than I would have thought!!!) I would have to say that it would be quite a chore to run with it. Kinda like running with a barbell complete with dumbells attached IMO. I hope to have these pictures back and posted by the weekend. Madmatt... ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! combathq.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kettle Black Posted March 29, 2000 Share Posted March 29, 2000 Hehe oops, just to be clear: I wasn't arguing for a change here!!! As Jason pointed out, the earlier threads were a bit... heated and didn't feel like they reached any conclusion so I decided to post this info when I found it. Any discussion on changing stuff is moot now anyways... The other time I asked about this I was wondering why the zook teams could run but the psk teams couldn't but after reading the site I understood why that decision had been made. So I thought I'd share it. Forgive me if I was unclear on that point. Thanks Jason for putting in the effort but I managed to avoid your posses ambush at the pass by joining the same posse Looking forward to the pics Matt, did they have the ammo carrying thingie there as well? Kettle Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted March 29, 2000 Share Posted March 29, 2000 Kettle, Yeah, I figured you weren't trying to raise that arguement up from the gave again. Sorry If I gave that impression. Sadly, I did not see the fabled ammo storage thingy. IIRC I have heard that it was a wooden box like pack which the loader wore on his back that was subdiveded with 'slots' in which the extra rockets were stored vertically but I might be just thinking of something else... Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! combathq.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 29, 2000 Share Posted March 29, 2000 KB, the conclusion was that until certain changes are made to the way fatigue is handled within CM, the PS and PIAT teams aren't going to be allowed to run, just like MMG, HMG, and other "heavy" teams. See... the problem is that practically any unit is capable of sprinting a short distance, but something like a PS team isn't going to do the 100 yard dash at the same speed as a 12 man Squad. Right now if we allowed them to move "Fast" this would happen. Same with other heavy teams. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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