British 76mm Mortar: PZIV Killer

[Guest grunto]

Try this:

Make a map, 560x560. Put one row of woods on the far allied (left) edge of the board.

Buy 5 Panzer IVs for the Germans and 15 76mm Mortars for the British. Each for costs 600 points so they're 'even.'

Play the scenario as British. Setup the mortars or move them up to the edge of the woods.

Once the firing starts, notice how badly they toast the Panzer IVs across the way. When I played this earlier I had 3 Panzer IVs killed with not a single casualty on the mortar side; this in the first 1 or 2 turns!

So even if the 37mm or 40mm guns are 'just right' against the Panzer IV (which I still happen to doubt), the 76mm Mortar is in any event an, 'antitank mortar.'

Please investigate/fix.

Thanks for your consideration,

Andy

[Jeff Heidman]

The entire issue of mortars and their accuracy in this game seems to be a recurring theme.

Under typical circumstances, what is the size of the box a mortar shell will land in when fired?

How much explosive (weight) does a typical mortar shell carry compared to the same sized shell fired from an artillery piece or AT gun?

What is the velocity of a mortar shell on impact? The velocity of an artillery shell?

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Patrik]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

What is the velocity of a mortar shell on impact? The velocity of an artillery shell?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that an European or an African shell?

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by grunto:

Try this:

So even if the 37mm or 40mm guns are 'just right' against the Panzer IV (which I still happen to doubt),

Please investigate/fix.

Thanks for your consideration,

Andy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This report and the tests from which it is written occurred before the British tumbled to the fact that the Germans were using face-hardened armour, which adversely affected the penetration ability of the uncapped 2-pdr AP shot. For instance the 60mm (30mm+30mm) FH plate of a PIV E drivers front plate would offer 85mm of protection vs. an uncapped 2pdr shot.

Penetration tests against PIV tank with 2-pdr mounted in a cruiser MK.IVA

a. Broadside at 500yds:

All shots and whole of side armour penetrated the near side plates. Three shots broke up inside the tank when striking some part of the gun or mounting. Three shots went completely through both sides of the tank, i.e. penetration of 60mm of armour plate.

Note: This tank had one of the additional 20mm centre side plate removed, therefore the hull on that side was only 20mm. (So the 2pdr penetrated a 20+20mmFH plate the dead space and then another 20mm of plate).

b. Broadside at 1100yds:

All shots penetrated the 40mm plate on the near side of the hull but, after penetration, broke up and made little or no impression on the other side of the hull.

c. Head-on at 500yds:

Of six rounds fired all penetrated except one. Because of the fact that that one round did not penetrate and because the five that had obviously done so with some difficulties, i.e. the hole made was only about 50% of the actual diameter of the projectile-a good deal of which had been striped off around the edges of the hole-I stated that I considered that 500yds is the maximum range at which penetration could be obtained against the thickest frontal armour on this type of tank. (30mmFH+30mmFH)

By 1942 the British although possessing examples of FH armoured German tanks for about a year finally noticed that they were in fact FH protected and finally dropped the insulting judgements on their tankers poor gunnery, and began manufacturing and issuing 2pdr shot APCBC Mark IT which could and did penetrate the 50mmFH armour at 0 deg at 1000yds and 30 deg at 500yds. It’s interesting that the 2pdr in Normandy and beyond fired the APCBC exclusively. The 2pdr and the 3.7mm (USA) can and will penetrate the 50mm of turret armour of the PIV at sub 800 metres range.

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From the jshandorf

"Why don't we compare reality to the game like Bastables likes to do all the time?"

Mr T's reply

"Don't touch me FOO!"

(BilgeRat) synopsis= "Im a dickhead"

[This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 12-22-2000).]

[illo]

I think this subject is more about mortars pin point accuracy. (no one can count tanks exact position in seconds and start hitting it right away+ great dispersion would make perfect aim impossible.)

Now we see mortars hitting AVFs roof 3 times in row from 800m...quite accurate from guy not allways even seeing the target.

[Renaud]

Did the panzers manuever or just sit there? Is it as easy to hit fast moving tanks with mortars? If the tanks rushed the mortars or moved up under covered routes could they prevail?

Ren

[Vergeltungswaffe]

In a scenario I just finished, a German 81mm mortar landed 6 out of 14 shots as topside direct hits on a Sherman II and did no damage at all! None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

The tank never even moved. It was like they said, "'arry, there's a bleeding mortar shellin us", "Aw Nigel, don't worry, they can't muck us up".

[Guest Madmatt]

Are you guys all testing this with the new b24 Beta Patch? I would suggest you do...We don't always list *all* the things that get tweaked you know....

Madmatt

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patrik:

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

What is the velocity of a mortar shell on impact? The velocity of an artillery shell?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that an European or an African shell?

AIIIEEEEEEE!!! as the good Sir Jeff plummets into the dark cavenous valley.

Good one Patrik.

Regards

Jim R.

[Samhain]

In my painful experience, I know mortars seem to almost magically home in directly on German armored cars and especially HT's with their convenient open tops, particularly the mortar carriers. I assume these must be high on the list of target priorities for the AI.

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I rode a tank, held a general's rank

When the blitzkrieg raged, and the bodies stank.

--Rolling Stones

[Tanaka]

Just a question...

Why does the 3" (76,2mm) UK mortar has more penetrating power then the German 81mm ?

[Guest Big Time Software]

FYI guys, I made some more tweaks that will hopefully solve this problem. I did this after beta 24 so you won't see the fix in the version you have right now.

Tanaka - the Brit 3" mortar actually fires a much larger shell than the German 81mm (about 10 pounds compared to 6 pounds). Its maximum range is therefore shorter, so it's a tradeoff.

Charles

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

FYI guys, I made some more tweaks that will hopefully solve this problem. I did this after beta 24 so you won't see the fix in the version you have right now.

Tanaka - the Brit 3" mortar actually fires a much larger shell than the German 81mm (about 10 pounds compared to 6 pounds). Its maximum range is therefore shorter, so it's a tradeoff.

Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the mortar tweaks, Charles.

It appears as though the issue of the 37/40mm guns versus the panzer IVs was addressed, above.

Andy