Are Buildings Deathtraps?

[Runyan99]

Boy, CM really punishes infantry for being in a collapsing building! When faced by tanks or artillery, infantry defending a town is going to take high casualties from HE shells and collapsing buildings.

The question is then "Are buildings deathtraps?" Should my infantry be somewhere else? But then where else can they be when defending a town or village. I'm starting to try and keep squads out of buildings and COMPLETELY out of second storeys. Is this a realistic tactical result of the simulation? Are other players starting to do the same, particularly against PBEM opponents?

I find that if I deploy my infantry towards the front of the town, they take heavy casualties from direct tank fire (e.g. Reisburg) BUT I have also found that if infantry and MGs are not deployed somewhat forward to make life difficult for advancing infantry, then the attackers can easily enter the town and then concentrate infantry squads at the point of attack and overwhelm more isolated defenders. If I use only MGs as a forward defense (usually on the second floor of a building for maximum LOS) they can be dealt with in short order by the attacking armor. None of this is going to be a problem in a pure infantry fight of course.

So what do you think? What is the best defense of a town against a combined infantry and armor assault?

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"Never mind what Clausewitz thought! What do YOU think?"

Erwin Rommel as a young instructor at the Potsdam school of infantry.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Runyan99:

So what do you think? What is the best defense of a town against a combined infantry and armor assault?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, just hole them all up in buildings and wait for a stupid attacker to waste his infantry in piecemeal understrength attacks against the houses. Hmm, wonder who could take that role - doh! Cpt. Turner just got relieved of his command.

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Andreas

[Ghost Dog]

I actually managed to immobilize a STUG that

stood behind the church in CE when I out of boredom levelled the same building.

I assume the falling debris just boxed it in.

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[Major Tom]

Yep, Runyan, don't hide in buildings, especially when I target them with HE at long range

Germanboy is right, if you don't have any heavy artillery attacking buildings is a tough deal. How many squads did you lose when walking into my building block?

[Guest Babra]

"An army which remains fixed in its defences is already beaten"

Napoleon said that I think, or the French equivalent. Keep your defence fluid. Move from building to building.

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Floreat Jerboa !

[Guest Big Time Software]

Buildings are generally GOOD places for infantry to hide. However, as with anything in warfare, there are always reasons to avoid being in there at certain times. One of the worst is when the enemy has some heavy direct fire HE weapon AND it is able to get a clear LOS on the building being hidden in.

In the recent post quoting German town defense plans it clearly states that the houses on the outside ring of a town are BAD places for a main line of resistance. The reason cited is exactly what happens in CM when something like a Sherman starts lobbing HE into a building.

Steve

[ARCHANGEL]

I(usually) use the technique described above...plus, as someone already posted, keep your troops fluid.

However, there ARE exceptions... the other day playing CE (US), I had a rifle squad, two bazooka's and a surviving tank crew in one of the little stone bldgs to the left of the road (from the US view)...they were doing a great job for several turns, even bagged a Stug and ran off another with the bazooka's...while I was looking over

another part of the battle THAT building caught on fire and only three of them got out...no Stug's were left and there wasn't any incoming mortar or arty fire, so I am assuming the fire was started by a German Pz S team... (I don't know CM's modelling well enough to know how often this sort of fire happens).

Once I lost most of a German platoon in that church when the M4's levelled it...so I sympathize with your plight...(and I knew better! )

[This message has been edited by ARCHANGEL (edited 02-19-2000).]

[Bamse]

I have them right behind the buildings(in foxholes) and when the enemy is close i advance the short way in too the building.

It's not watertight but prevent casualties from PBEM Opponents that shell town from a distance without a visual contact.

[Lurker]

As I am learning in my initial PBEM games, buildings are bad news when the enemy has arty or tank support.

As a defending German, I'd move out of the outer ring of buildings into the inner buildings. That way, you avoid the long range arty and get to make use of the awesome close range firepower of your submachinegun squads.

Of course, since I've only managed to pull this off against the AI and not a real human being, I don't know how valid my tactics are.

And, as others have stated, having a static defense is merely begging for your opponent to flank your positions. The thing that I'm still working on is how to conduct an elastic defense.

Learning the hard way,

-Lurker

[Fionn]

Lightly hold the outermost row of buildings with infantry platoons ( e.g in Riesberg 1 platoon on the left of the road).

Place HMGs in buildings in the 2nd row of buildings (close to the road) so they can provide fire down the road if the Americans attempt to cross it AND the MG42 can form a hinge around which to pivot the left of your front right or the right of your front leftwards in reaction to unexpected breakthroughs.

Finally the HMG42 will get enough glimpses of advancing Amis through the buildings to disrupt the timing of their advance whilst its position will greatly protect it from enemy tank fire. (use schrecks to make the Amis pay if he closes to shell the HMG42).

After you hurt the American advance a little pull your infantry back into the 2nd row of houses.. If you do this right you should have wiped out a minimum of half a platoon for no more than 2 or 3 casualties.

If the Amis commander is good he'll be advancing with at least 2 platoons straight down your throat.

The aim of the rifle platoon and HMG 42 is to disrupt his advance so that one of these platoons reaches the 1st row of houses before the other. Mount a quick, sharp, local counter-attack the INSTANT his first platoon reaches the houses and rout that platoon.

If you time this all right you should wipe out 1.5 US platoons for roughly half a German platoon. You can then withdraw the half platoon into the second row of houses safe in the knowledge that either the Americans simply commit the remaining half platoon of their assault to pin you or they abandon their plan and commit flank force platoons to the frontal assault.

Either way you mess up their plan and inflict major casualties PLUS you encourage him to bring his tanks in close to the village and make him wary of sending infantry in to assault possible German positions.

The placement of the HMG42s so that they can totally and irrevocably bring fire to bear on the roads lying between the first and 2nd lines of houses is VERY important though. Those 2 MGs are going to have to pin and suppress any enemy infantry platoon which charges across the road to close assault your surviving half platoon.

basic rules of cityfighting (as I see it)

1. Mount only a very brief defence on the outskirts of the city.

2. Encourage the enemy to advance piecemeal.

3. Destroy each of these piecemeal advances as soon as it is made by means of quick, local counter-attacks.

4. Once a platoon is badly attrited site it in pre-selected defensive positions covered by HMG fire.

That'll chew up ANY infantry assault and about the only way he can break through is to call in arty (which will help preserve your 88s since he won't be calling in arty on them) , direct mortar fire on each individual building you might be in (time-consuming), or to bring his tanks close and level the buildings with HE ( which exposes him to schrecks).

[Guest Kettle Black]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghost Dog:

I actually managed to immobilize a STUG that

stood behind the church in CE when I out of boredom levelled the same building.

I assume the falling debris just boxed it in.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boredom? You wuz scared like hell and got happy trigger fingers! Tanks should fire at the enemy, not at all buildings you find unappealing, you destructive person. The rebuilding costs for that church in CE AND the 5 (!) houses in Riesberg you ordered destroyed will be deducted from your pay. The end result of your town planning is one StuG immobilized, one hung over MG42 team and a dachshound with a slight limp. Buildings are not the enemy and you are relieved of your command.

When your grandchildren (who will still be paying off your debts) ask you what you did during WW2, you'll say: Well son, I wuz shoveling **** in Omaha. Report to 1st Latrinedigging batallion immediately.

Your enemy, PBEM and hotseat,

Kettle Black

[Scott C]

LOL... in my first PBEM game, I leveled more than half of Riesberg. There weren't too many Germans to worry about by the time I made my infantry assault. Moral of the story - if you decide you really must defend from the first row of house, for heaven's sake hide your troops so they don't open fire on the first GI they see! All it did was pinpoint the Germans for my Shermans to smash.

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Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories?

[Bratch]

Originally posted by ARCHANGEL:

I(usually) use the technique described above...plus, as someone already posted, keep your troops fluid.

I had a rifle squad, two bazooka's and a surviving tank crew in one of the little stone bldgs to the left of the road (from the US view

THAT building caught on fire and only three of them got out...no Stug's were left and there wasn't any incoming mortar or arty fire, so I am assuming the fire was started by a German Pz S team...

Probably what happened is your own bazooka team started the fire. The backblast from the zook is enough to start the building on fire. I had the same thing happen.

[Guest Germanboy]

Bazookas and Panzerschrecks definitely can start fires if used from inside a building - ask Major Tom

Major, I think I lost about 80% of the two platoons when assaulting your strongpoints understrenght. What was left was no use afterwards but just cowered, hoping to God that it is over soon. Lesson learned - next time I am going to come in real strength AFTER sending patrols first.

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Andreas

[ARCHANGEL]

Bratch,

Hmm! I wasn't watching...makes sense tho, I have seen backblast from other AT weapons in the real world start fires...

Did you see it happen when you had the same situ ?? I am not totally positive that I had the bazooka's firing at the time since all the German armor was gone and no Infantry was target-worthy just then...my bazooka teams may have been "hiding" at the time...hmm! But you bring up the only plausable explanation..

Great point...I will pay more attention next time...

Thank You...

[Major Tom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Bazookas and Panzerschrecks definitely can start fires if used from inside a building - ask Major Tom

Major, I think I lost about 80% of the two platoons when assaulting your strongpoints understrenght. What was left was no use afterwards but just cowered, hoping to God that it is over soon. Lesson learned - next time I am going to come in real strength AFTER sending patrols first.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, what you didn't realize was that my guys were practically out of ammo by the end of it!

This happened when Germanboy decided to assault my positions in 2 story buildings without the handy support of Shermans. It was in the major Building complex to the German rear in Risenburg. Held out 3 Platoons of Infantry there, and 1 platoon dug into the forest directly to the right. He lost 2 Shermans, but, had one flank my left (but was out of action for most of the game due to it didn't see many of my troops until the end) and the other one was concentrating on my very sucessful 88 and platoon in the forest. What happened, was, that he charged a platoon of infantry into a building held by an understrength SMG platoon, and got annihilated. If you aren't afraid of enemy tanks, the best place for infantry is up on the top levels of 2 story buildings and position them that they can mutually support eachother. Not only is the enemy tired from running into the structure, but, you are firing from above. I must have lost 6 guys in his assault (and used up practically all my ammo!) but managed to attrition an entire platoon to bits. The same thing happened on my forest flank. He ran down the length of my defenses, I lost a HMG and basically an entire squad, but, managed to effectively destroy an entire platoon. It wasn't until enemy tanks appeared that my defense was breeched.

Yes, I fired a Schreck from the bottom story of a Victory building, killed a Sherman first shot, and lit my own building on fire. No DIRECT casualties, but, everyone decided to run resulting in the loss of the Schreck team and 3 other men to small arms. It was really funny seeing that tank go up, and my defenses burst into flames all cause of 1 little Schreck.

[Simon Fox]

Buildings aren't so bad as long as there is no direct HE around. I just assaulted a stone building in a PBEM. I suppressed the occupants with fire from 2x HMG42 and three heavy SMG squads (that's 8MGs!), from 2 sides of the building. My assault force 2xSMG squads + Plt-HQ got within 20-30m before detection and got chewed up badly although there was a second wave also providing suppression. Casualties to the occupants were minor. Most of mine came from a single grenade blast which wiped out most of a squad. Not having played the Germans before I had an inkling of the fragility of the SMG squads but figured if I suppressed the building enough I would be OK. I'm still trying to figure out where I went wrong

If only they would use their Fausts on the damn thing!

[Major Tom]

Supression really counts, same with the experience of the soldiers being assaulted and those assaulting. If you are attacking a building that has Green troops defending it, shaken troops, or troops low on ammo this is a penalty for the defenders. If the attackers are of weak quality, low on ammo, or shaken then they will have a less chance in defeating the enemy. In the Reisenburg PBEM with Germanboy, after he assaulted one of my tall buildings and got a platoon chewed up, I assaulted one of his with a Regular SMG platoon on shaken troops. I did have high casualties, but, I was able to take the building probably because my troops attacking were fresh, full of ammo, and were of good experience. When having to assault buildings, without tank support, you have to have around a platoon per large structure left in reserve in order to take it effectively. The best way in taking these structures is to smash them down.