Halftrack--only a team?

[curih]

Steve,

I think you missed the other Steve's point. He didn't mean that the .50 cal was dismounted for combat, but rather that it was removed before the HT went into service. However, from his post I'm not entirely sure whether or not it was replaced with another weapon. Anyone have more info on this?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Ah... yes, I was a little confused about his post. So basically the thrifty Brits retrofitted the M5A1s to not have the MG at all, in order to increase troop capacity. That is interesting and would love to see some documentation of this happening and if they had any weapon put in its place (like the .30 in a M5).

Steve

[Kingfish]

Steve,

Is there a reason why the M3 HTs can carry 12 riflemen but not 3 zook teams. Just curious.

[argie]

kingfish,

Is in the code: a vehicle could transport 1 full squad or 2 teams, no matters their size.

Ariel

[Guest Napoleon1944]

Just make it easy. Leave it at a squad.

[stevetherat]

curih - spot on!

steve - i got a book out of the library but i cannot remember what it was called (silly arse). it detailed an encounter when usa and bit armoured troups met and the difference was noted.

we did put another mg on but it was much smaller than a .50 - lewis gun i think (AA).

steve

[Wilhammer]

Some quick research.

According to the "Standard Ordnance Items Catalog, 1944, Vol 1" available at http://carlisle-www.army.mil/cgi-bin/usamhi/DL/showdoc.pl?docnum=710:

M2 series carries up to 10 men.

The M3A2 was fitted for 5-12 men.

The M2, M2A1, and M3A2 are designated as "Half-Track Cars"

The M3, M3A1 (Half Track Personnel Carriers)had 12 man capacities, and interestingly, the M3A1 was equipped with a .50 cal ring and a .30 cal.

The M9A1 is equal to the M2A1, the M5 series is equal to the corresponding M3 series.

The M5A1 has capacity for 13 men, an M-49 ring mount for a .50 cal, and three pivot mounts for a .3o cal MG, a direct relation to the M3A1.

Apparently, the only difference between the M2/M3 series and the M9/M5 series is that the M9/M5 series was manufactured by International Harvester, while the others are by the likes of White Car.

The A2 series are intended for "International Aid Services Only", which I suppose is Army lingo for Ambulance.

The M2 and M3 were phased out (of production, but were still "limited standard") by 1943.

The A1 versions only real change was the addition of an AA mount (the M49 ring) over the assistant driver position, not as MadMatt states "... the M3A1 which has the special MG mount in the passenger compartment."

Specific mention of command versions (no command specific version were designated, they were custom made apparently in the field) is in terms of equipment displacement of men, for example if they add a SCR-508 radio, you lose 2 men.

Go read this booklet, it is full of great detail on every vehicle in the US Army in March 1944.

Be sure to check out http://carlisle-www.army.mil/cgi-bin/usamhi/DL/showdoc.pl?docnum=712 for US Weapons.

Be sure to check out page 63-66, an exhaustive description of every type of Vehicular MG mounts used by the US Army.

Apparently, an assistant driver was expected to be a gunner on anything that moved. Maybe that is why we call it "Riding Shotgun".

It would appear that the reason the Brits removed the .50 cal position was likely because they did not use the .50 cal HMG normally, and replaced with their MGs.

In conclusion, the M3A1, M5A1 have an M49 .50 cal mount over the assistant driver position, the A1 series replaced the the M3/M5 series in production, and that all of them can carry 13 men.

No special command HTs manufactured, only regular HTs with command equipment onboard that displaces rider positions.

[This message has been edited by Wilhammer (edited 12-01-2000).]

[Formerly Babra]

Steve (BTS).

Clicking on the link won't work, but you can copy it right to your browser. It's an article from Armor mag about the development of US Tank/Infantry cooperation in WW2. Only a very small section is relevant to this discussion, but it's a good read anyway.

EDIT: The relevance is the reference to squad members being actual crew members of the halftrack. If this is extrapolated, the M3(MMG) with its crew is actually the suppport squad for a platoon. Read the article and draw your own conclusions.

------------------

I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

[This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 12-01-2000).]

[Wilhammer]

http://147.238.100.101/dtdd/armormag/so99/5mudd99.pdf

My other pet peeve is mentioned in this article as well, the use of WP to eradicate MG nests in Hedgerow country, though admittedly, it reads like a regurgitation of Doubler's report.

[Wilhammer]

bump

[Blindicide]

I was just about to post a Q on this and thought I'd do a search first.Some interesting posts but here's my 2c worth.

From my US military vehicles guide the M3,M3A1 and M5A1 have seating for 13 whereas the M2's only have seating for 10.The M3A2,a modification of the M3A1 had crews ranging from 5 to 12 men (+ driver?) depending on stowage carried and tactical purpose intended.Normally the vehicle mounts one .50cal or one .30cal MG together with the required vehicular accessories,tools,spare parts and equipment which are provided for all HT's.Under such circumstances a crew of 12 can be carried.Three pintle sockets are provided to accomodate additional MG's when authorized.When the vehicles carry special loadings or have radios installed,personnel are displaced.As an example,if an SCR-508 radio is installed,the crew is reduced by two men.When used as a MG squad carrier additional ammo is carried in place of two of the seat positions.

This certainly suggests there should be no restriction on the ability of the HT's to take a full squad unless it is loaded out for some other purpose.