Combat Mission II (Why Not The Pacific)

[lucero1148]

A Pacific version would be great. I'm sure it would open up a new market for BTS. There is probably an untapped market of Japanese, Korean and Chinese wargamers who would love to try their hand at re-fighting WWII Pac battles.

Best

Patrick

[Guest AbnAirCav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

Out of curiosity, what do you suppose would be the most interesting elements of the CM4 early war years game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, for me, personally, it would be the Pz 38(t)! (Altho we should see them in CM2: Eastern Front, where they'll take a beating [i've read 796 lost in the first six months].)

To quote Fionn, "should be interesting for the far greater emphasis on infantry and the entirely different 'pace' of combat. No massed MG squads, no SP 105s shooting up every house in sight just good old-fashioned infantry supported by a few tanks with pop-guns which can knock each other out but don't have the firepower to really knock infantry attacks back the way a Sherman 75 or Sherman 105 can."

I agree with that and couldn't have said it better myself. And, I would like to take these early light tanks out for a spin where they're able to do some good ...

[lucero1148]

Maximus pretty uncool.

Re. "Pac battles being boring", I think if you look at the tactical side of trying to defeat a bunker system it would be quite challenging. Although the general response has been that it would be only a series of bunker busting, it took an endless supply of US troops to conquer Tawara, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. CM battles are tactical situations so if you had a company of troops to go at a Japanese bunker system could you defeat the emeny without getting castrated? That is where I find a Pac game interesting at this level.

All best

Patrick

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Croda said:

The same goes for North Africa. B-O-R-I-N-G. Tank battles from 2000m out with nothing to hide behind but the occasional sand dune. Yeah, that sure does sound exciting...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't have a clue do you. Maybe you should read up on the Battles in Africa. Dunes? Im sorry but most of the conflict took place near the coast, meaning Mesa's and rock formations, its not the sandy wastes of Dune. Never mind that CM3 is the med which means Italy, Crete, Greece as well as Nth Africa.

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Basebal351:

I don't think the term "Jap" is that bad. It's just a shortening of "Japan" or "Japanese", which are accepted terms, so how can just shortening that be demeaning? Sorry, I know it's not that big of a deal, but I've got a real problem with all of this "politically correct" crap being shoved down my throat for the past few years. I need to rebel against the system a little bit, you know? Just to show I'm not a pushover. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i thought JAP was Jewish-American Princess.. oh how i love those =grin=

Andy

[Victor Semensi]

From my 30 years of playing wargames it seems that the profit in landbased wargames is in Europe where the big battles were and the profit in naval wargames lies in the Pacific where the big naval battles were. BTS has to go where the money is. What I'm hoping is that they will eventually license the engine to developers who would like to simulate other theaters and time periods. It didn't seem to hurt the sales of DOOM and QUAKE when those engines were licensed out and some fine niche games were the result.

[Wild Bill Wilder]

I have and will continue to lobby for a CM Pacfic/Asia module.

If we should get it, it would be the last in the series (#5 - there are three more ahead of it), but I have not lost the vision.

I'll just need your support and voices when the day comes. BTS is not going to produce it unless they KNOW there is a market for it.

This is an ideal game for the Pacific with it's emphasis on infantry. Great opportunities for tactics in new surroundings. Not every battle was a "Banzai" charge as you all know.

Wild Bill

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Wild Bill

Lead Tester

Scenario Design Team

Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord

billw@matrixgames.com

[Simon Fox]

Are Japanese people offended by the term Jap? Are Finnish people offended by the term Finn?

Are British people offended by the term Brit?

Are American people offended by the term Ami?

You septics only seem to shorten national names when you feel the need to insult people. Aussies 'shorten' every bloody name. Just like the Germans are 'Jerries' or 'Fritz', the Italians 'Ities', the English 'Poms' etc etc. If your cultural parlance is to only use such terms in a derogatory context then don't.

If we want to insult them we'd use 'Nips' or somefink else.

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lucero1148:

Maximus pretty uncool.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh, BITE ME, OK??

[Maximus]

Exactly my point, Simon.

Were the British offended by the term "Tommies"?

Hell, Gen Patton had no qualms in calling the Germans Huns. Check out my signature.

Why does everybody roll up into a ball and cry when the word, "Jap" is mentioned???

Please give it a rest, because I'm sick of all the political correctness when trying to discuss historical entities. American troops called the Japanese, "Japs". American troops called the Vietnamese, "Gooks" or my favorite, "Gookers". So what??? If you can't take it, get the hell out of the kitchen. There's no room for wussies on this board.

Because no matter what you say, it's gonna piss off somebody somewhere, so I just live life as much as I can.

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"We're not gonna just shoot the bastards`, we're gonna cut out their living guts, and use them to grease the treads of our tanks."

"We're going to murder those lousey hun bastards by the buschel."

"The Nazis are the enemy, wade into them,

spill their blood, shoot them in the belly."

"We are not holding our position, let the hun do that."

"We are advancing constantly, we are not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy."

"We're gonna hold onto him by the nose, and we're gonna kick him in the ass."

"We're gonna kick the hell out of him all the time, and we're going to go through him like crap through a goose."--George S. Patton

[Victor Semensi]

Perhaps a Pacific CM could include the Korean War as well. After all most of the tank models will have been done by then.

[Guest AbnAirCav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables:

Never mind that CM3 is the med which means Italy, Crete, Greece as well as Nth Africa. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

  Yeah, I'm stoked, not just for the DAK, but also for Operation 'Merkur' (Mercury), the invasion of Crete, a classic of airborne warfare! In the same vein, I would expect that we'll also get Operation 'Husky', the airborne assault on Sicily! Throw in Monte Cassino, what's not to love?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wild Bill Wilder:

This is an ideal game for the Pacific with it's emphasis on infantry. Great opportunities for tactics in new surroundings. Not every battle was a "Banzai" charge as you all know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

  I'm with Brother Bill, keepin' the faith on the Pacific/CBI ... who wouldn't want to take "The Rock" with the 503rd's surprise airborne assault on Corregidor? Run Operation 'Thursday', flying Wingate's Special Force two 'Chindit' brigades (first class British, Gurkha, and West African [Nigerian] battalions) deep into the heart of Japanese-held Burma ... or capture Myitkina Airfield, the only all-weather airfield in Burma, with Merrill's Marauders?

  Oh, man, feel the love!

(edited because I got so excited I typed "Crete" again instead of "Sicily")

[This message has been edited by AbnAirCav (edited 12-11-2000).]

[Col Deadmarsh]

Bastables said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You don't have a clue do you. Maybe you should read up on the Battles in Africa. Dunes? Im sorry but most of the conflict took place near the coast, meaning Mesa's and rock formations, its not the sandy wastes of Dune. Never mind that CM3 is the med which means Italy, Crete, Greece as well as Nth Africa.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Truth be told, I don't know squat about the battles in North Africa so the first thing I thought of was dune battles. Glad to hear this wasn't the case.

Maximus said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Please give it a rest, because I'm sick of all the political correctness when trying to discuss historical entities. American troops called the Japanese, "Japs". American troops called the Vietnamese, "Gooks" or my favorite, "Gookers". So what??? If you can't take it, get the hell out of the kitchen. There's no room for wussies on this board.

Because no matter what you say, it's gonna piss off somebody somewhere, so I just live life as much as I can.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen! Screw this politically correct crap. I feel the same way Maximus and Archie Bunker do about this stuff.

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Youth is wasted on the young.

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wild Bill Wilder:

I have and will continue to lobby for a CM Pacfic/Asia module.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally I'd buy a Barbie Dress Up game if BTS wrote it. Of course I'd immediately give it to some of the Pengboys who could use that sort of thing, but....

Seriously, the Pacific theater doesn't hold much interest from me, but CM sure does. Sign me up for your petition when the time is right, Bill.

-dale

[Jeff Heidman]

As far as a Pacific War CM goes, those who think that the war in that theatre was nothing more than a series of "boring" assaults on bunker lines are showing their rather astounding lack of knowledge about the subject.

it is one thing to say you are not interested. That's fine. It is quite another to say that the figthing in Burma was the same as the Marina amphibious assault on Iwo Jima. I suggest that some contributors go do a little reading about the Pacific Land War.

As far as the PC stuff goes, it is very simple.

"Yank" is derogatory if the typical person one would refer to as a Yank would consider it derogatory.

"Nigger" is derogatory if the typical person one would refer to as "Nigger" finds it deragotory.

"Jap" is deragatory if the typical Japanese person would find it derogatory.

Figure it out, and then figure out where "political correctness" stops and basic respect starts. If someone does not wish to be reffered to by a particular name, then why insist on using it?

Jeff Heidman

[Simon Fox]

What's a 'typical person'?

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox:

What's a 'typical person'? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shrug. Use some judgement. That's what it is for.

Jeff

[Mark IV]

One more vote again for the PTO... and Korea, dammit.

I wanna do Singapore. Wild Bill, I'll bet a bag of yen you've got a Pacific mod going somewhere...

And once again, my GF of long standing is a real live Jap from Japan. She is offended when she knows "Jap" is meant as an insult, but has no problem with it as shorthand. You can usually tell how it is meant. Jap cameras rule, "dirty Japs" is insulting (I think they find the notion of dirt more insulting than the epithet). The Japanese are pretty together in the self-esteem department.

What I find curious is the notion that other Asians would find it insulting. They have far more pejorative nicks for the Japanese.

[Viceroy]

Jeff,

as a long term resident in Asia I can inform you that in most Asian languages the word for white person or Caucasian, is simply big nose guy! And that's the polite word. The words for Black people are far too negative and depressing too share on this board.

"Jap" could be rude depending on how is was used and the context. So could "Pom" and "Brit".

[Simon Fox]

I should have known better than to ask a rhetorical question.

As MarkIV and viceroy say context is everything.

[JeffRaider]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>CM2 will be the next game and will cover the Eastern Front and should be ready in about 18 months.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard this 18 month thing for the last several months. When does clock start?

[Major Tom]

I would like to see a Pacific War theatre, but, perfer Euopean theatre stuff. More mixed formation battles (very few tank battles in the Pacific, barring some engagements on the Philippines in 1942, Japan vs Russia 1940's and 1945, a few sporatic encounters whent the US invaded some Islands [7 Japanese tanks vs 8 US tanks on Tarawa!]). Usually, Pacific battles were very one sided. There are some exceptions (8th Australian Division vs 2nd Imperial Guards Division in Malaya, 26th US Cavalry vs 48th IJA Division in the Philippines, 7th Australian Division vs South Seas Detachment in New Guinea, Imphal 1944, Leyte 1944, Guadalcanal 1942-1943) The battle for Manila was pretty intense, but, very one sided. 100 000 Philippino Civilians died, due to Japanese executions and American Artillery. There were some horrific battles, but not to the scale of Stalingrad (maybe 20 000 poorly trained IJN survivors from sunken ships vs 2 professional US Divisions).

Regarding the racist slang and anti-political correctedness. I tend to notice from those who profess 'down with political correctness' are individuals who aren't really affected by it. Most of you are probably straight white males (get the irony?), who, like on the Dennis Leary song, could care less about equalizing the world and ensuring that everyone is treated equally, since, being straight, white and male you have a distinct advantage over everyone. It is up to the Japanese wether or not 'Jap' is derogatory, it is up to the Hispanic wether or not 'Spic' is derogatory. It isn't up to us.

[lucero1148]

Maximus

Bite you where?

As far as being PC goes most of it is silly but, what is this about this "board being no place for wusses"?

What I object more is the manner in which Maximus first made it an issue by saying "OH SHUT THE HELL UP!"

Is this an open board or not. Terrence was quite right to make a point and he did it well. For others to state that it's not right to do so (which is how I'm perceiving this turn in the discussion) because they're sick of hearing how to be PC well fine, we're all entitled to an opinion.

Since half of my ancestry is Japanese I can honestly say I don't like being called a Jap. However I didn't find "Head Mahone's" use of the word Jap offensive as I didn't perceive it as being used as a slur.

[JeffRaider]

Look everyone! Maximus made an error! "Cannuck" is more correctly spelled "Canuck"! Let us make derogatory remarks and belittle him! Tee hee hee! Ha ha ha! Oh what fun it is to make fun of someone for their spelling!

Jeff

oh and bts fix it now or somefink cuase eiter four or 4 days from noww this quesstion is asked already or somefink.

(Rob/1)/(STRANKSY)

[Guest Madmatt]

Okay, since all this thread is doing is getting heated and we have commented on our position regarding a Pacific war version many times in the past its best to close this up.

Madmatt