Lighting a candle for the "Kursk"

[Grognerd_Fogman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KMHPaladin:

GrogFrog - you said that many engine-room crews were forced to wear OBAs because of a lack of radiation shielding. I'm no expert on radiation, but would that really help? Yes, it might prevent inhalation of radioactive particles that might wreak havoc in the lungs, but that's nothing compared to the damage that would be caused by the gamma rays hitting the sailors. What was the line from The Hunt for Red October - "Simply ventilating won't help; we've got to get the men off!" Sounds about right to me...

Like I said, I'm no physicist, but I don't think breathing bottled air would really do a darned thing for those sailors. Input is welcome...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it's the inhalation of (IIRC) Alfa an Beta radiation particles that they were protecting against. Gamma would of course laugh at such protection and that is probably why the men had so many health related problems after serving on those class of subs.

From a former Thermo-Luminescence-Device Wearer (TLD)...

[Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger]

Originally posted by Fionn:

DUJ,

Trust me, if you wanted to rob a few tactical nukes from the Russians you could do it FAR more easily than by staging some sort of complicated underwater heist.

Also, the Soviet navy isn't that inept that it would have failed to notice the various submarines necessary to carry this sort of thing off. I'd be willing to bet my metaphorical house that no "underwater hollywood heist" occured.

--I said it was speculation... the large amount of hearsay regarding what actually happened makes for some speculation. Of course there are easier ways of getting the units from a sub. Like staging the heist while its sitting in base away from the sub. In some wharehouse protected by a bunch of guys who think nothing is going to happen and are instead playing cards or whatever.

What if it was a statement? The Chechen people could have support in other places. The Chinese are not fond of the Russians right now and they have maritime commando's that almost rival the Yankie SEALS or even the German Combat Swimmers.

As I said its just speculation on what actually happened.

I am not focused on why its not possible, it could happen, besides I think its a bit more important that the remaining men on that sub make it home.

[Tom Callmeyer]

That was a low cut to post in this thread Mr. Johnson. I hope you find some other way to amuse yourself.

[kverdon]

Well things are not lookng good . Man I wish they'd asked for help sooner. It very well could be that neither the US, British, Norwegian or anybody's Navy could get to those trapped submariners but it would at least feel better that all means had been tried. I know there is the question of security but REALLY how much would US Submariners learn from assisting in the rescue? The ships systems are offline, its half full of water, the missiles are in their closed silos. The rescuers would have more than enough to do just comleting the rescue. I supose they could be worried about a US intel type getting loose on the sub but in its current state I doubt they would learn much of REAL use.

As to whether or not she'll be raised and refitted. I'd doubt it. I'm willing to bet that the sub sustained significant damage in its uncontrolled dive to the bottom not to mention the damage that she sustained in whatever explosion causing her to loose control. There is mention of a debries field around the sub. They may raise her but I'd significantly doubt that the Russian Navy has the fund to repair the damage she's taken.

Perhaps this disaster will help the respective parties think about how to avoid such a loss of life in the future. Its a start that we are training together on how to effect a space station rescue, maybe well start to look at other areas.

Kevin

[DrD]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grognerd_Fogman:

There must have been something catastrophic that happened to cause them to secure the nuclear reactor. It could have also been shut down automatically and unable to be restarted. There are many safeguards in place which would do this to prevent nuclear mishaps. Without the reactor the only available power onboard would be the ships battery. This battery would only be able to provide very limited functioning of the subs minor systems (backup lights, emergency communications systems etc...) before needing a recharge after several hours of use. This battery can only be recharged from the normal power system (reactor running supplying the ships generators) or by the auxiliary diesel. The ships auxiliary diesel cannot be utilized in this case since the subs depth is too great. It can only be used at etc....

[This message has been edited by Grognerd_Fogman (edited 08-16-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT's why I love this board. Ask a question and get a great, informative answer from an expert.

Thanks!

[Tiger]

Latest news, tapping has stoppped a day or 3 ago. USA intel says that half the sub filled with water immediately at the time of the accident. Russians finally approved help from the british, and a rescue dsrv was flown to Norway. Russians asked the US for help but wouldn't tell them the size of the rescue hatch ! Or how deep the sub is in the water. Russian fleet was blacked out and told not to say anything of the loss when it happened. Damned ignorant cold war thinking still going on

If it's not too damaged it will be raised and salvaged at least, since it was a relatively new sub (1995?)

-johnS

[Chris Jenkins]

US intelligence is saying that there has never been any tapping. What's next, live missiles on board? These Russian Navy people are dangerous.

[Formerly Babra]

Der Unbekannte Jäger,

Are you for real? Sounds like pure weapons-grade bolonium to me.

------------------

There are two things you should never do:

Never get involved in a land war in Asia; and

Never try to out-kill a Sicilian!

[Tiger]

err, no Chris. US intel said that half the sub filled with water when the event occured. As they were undoubtable monitoring the manuvers, they probably have copies of any emergency communications from the sub as it happened (there's a big listening specialist branch in the UK that listens to everything around the globe).

The tapping (from within the sub) apparently stopped 2-3 days ago.

poor sots

-johnS

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Fionn, first I respect you very much. You have really done a lot of research on war and it shows in your execellent work and comments. Second, first off I question propaganda as much as I possible can. But it seems to me that Russia is coming apart at the seems. It seems to me that the Russian higher-ups don't care very much about the fighting/dying man in the Russian military very much. We will just have to wait and see if Moscow blames the accident on the captain of the Kursk, or puts them blame on themselves for not supplying the sub with a well trained crew, and well trained support to prevent accidents that kill 116 men trying to keep them in power. Third no I did not see or hear about those videos of Chechens killing Russians, nor did I ever doubt they could be very cruel also. Just look at the history of Ireland or Scotland. But just look at Chernobol or Mir to see how the Russian government puts their troops in situations that they have no control over. Things go bad and the Russian government turns the leaders of these projects into scapegoats and blame the accident on them. Many countries have tried to gain their independence and lost and many have tried and won. My only point was that most western media, takes everything Putin says about chechens as the truth. Its not like the U.N. has any observers over there, telling us whats really going on. I'm just trying to read between the lines. Do you believe everything Putin has said about them?

[Trooper]

I doubt that Kursk will be raised and refitted, when there are currently floating vessels in the Russian navy that are just sitting at the dockside in mid-refit wile they wait for cash.

As a sidenote, I note from my Harpoon rulebook a little sidebar that states that it is incorrect to use the definite article in front of a ship or boat's name. It would be akin to calling your friends "the John" or "the Mary"

Given that "Kursk" is a proper name, as is "Nicholas", "Fred" or "Marvin", I guess this seems logical.

NTM

[Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Formerly Babra:

Der Unbekannte Jäger,

Are you for real? Sounds like pure weapons-grade bolonium to me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whatever you think there, but welcome to the real world where weird stuff does happen. This is the same world where multi million dollar equipment breaks down despite excellent maintenance. Its called the murphy zone. Besides I am just tossing ideas out there to explain why the tubs were open because the Oscars are made to take hits and keep going. When two missile tubes are open you have to wonder could it be from the explossion/collission, or from firing excersis, do you have a better explanation?

Besides to say these brave sailors died from a mere accident just doesnt seem right (yes I know many things in the world arent) but it would somehow make this senseless disaster and the political crap that is killing these men a bit more less despondent.

[The Commissar]

On the subject of Kursk,

I just finished watching the Russian news program, and they mentioned the fact that the crew have not yet used any of the several ways they could of escaped from the submarine in their condition. Although I am no submariner, and thus do not know which methods are possible to escape, I will not make hasty conclusions that they have to work. What I do think is that if the escape pods (or whatever) are in working order as they should be, the crew cannot get to them. This might mean the crew are already dead, or incapacitated. If there was an explosion in the Kursk, this is very much likely the case.

Mr Johnson,

I do not want to get into an argument with you. However, I do take offense at what you said in your first post. Forgive my foolish Russian ignorance, but when a bunch of rebel terrorists from some country the USA is waring with decide to blow up a few building filled with innocent civilians as a start to a war, I will see how you react. The Chechens wanted "freedom", yet they have been doing nothing but stealing from Russia for years. They have drilled holes in a pipeline and stole precious fuels. Now they want independence (for who knows what) and to declare their independence, they kill a few hundred civilians.

I do not think there are any case of genocide there Mr. Johnson. A war is a war, and casualties are taken. If a country attacks another country openly using a terrorist act, it is as good a reason to fight a war as if the other country formeley declared war.

It is easy to point fingers Mr. Johnson when you only know half the story. Please find out more before you start accusing those nasty no-good Russians of killing those poor, harmless little Chechens.

------------------

...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Lorak]

on topic:

From everything I've read or have heard, I think a torpedo exploded in nose. Something like this would likely take out everything from the nose to the sail. Doesn't look like these guys chances are very good.

Off topic:

First off I'm not siding with or against the Chechen rebels or the Russian goverment. I think both sides have a good reason for what they are fighting for. I'm not going to augue with how they are fighting it. Other than to say the Russian military looks really bad (no matter which propaganda you read).

As for the chechen's starting it with the hotel bombs.... I really think that is bologney. I think Russia was looking for an excuse to go back into Chechnia and used the bombings as an excuse. I believe they were most likely russian mob attacks and the Russian Gov. just re-focused the blame.

Just my .02 worth

Lorak

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

well said Commissar, I don't want to get in a argument with you or anyone, except maybe Putin.

Forgive my foolish Russian ignorance, but when a

bunch of rebel terrorists from some country the USA is waring with decide to blow

up a few building filled with innocent civilians as a start to a war, I will see how

you react. The Chechens wanted "freedom", yet they have been doing nothing but

stealing from Russia for years. They have drilled holes in a pipeline and stole

precious fuels. Now they want independence (for who knows what) and to declare

their independence, they kill a few hundred civilians.

First, The USA has never been in a war with Chechens to my knowledge. I was talking about Russians.

Second, That is my whole point. How do we really know those bombs were set off by Chechens? Do we just believe everything Moscow says as gospel? They have shown no proof at all like America did during the Oklahoma city bombing.

Third, I truely have been trying to learn all I can about this conflict. I've been to the Chechen website where they post thier inflated kills of Russians and I've checked Russian news with their inflated kills. I've have seen many Russian familys very upset over the loss of their sons lost in this insane conflict. The world would be a very diffrent place If George Washington had sued for peace. We would probably call U.S.A. revolutionaries, terrorists also.

Thanks Lorak, I'm not the only one who does not believe everything they hear. I question everything.

P.S. nobody jump Lorak, keep it on me. I started this.

[This message has been edited by Mr. Johnson-<THC>- (edited 08-16-2000).]

[Rick614]

DrD

Oxygen is made from seawater as is fresh water. Power is of course needed to run these plants. A limited amount of Oxygen would be stored. An additional danger here is the build up of CO2 whick would normally be removed by scrubbers, again power needed.

As for the diesel good for emergency power but of course needs large amount of air to run, something they don't have. I think after what appears to be a catastrophic flooding they would have hit the bottom very fast. You have to realize that if you could stand this thing on one end the other end would be over a hundred feet out of the water. I wasn't a nuc but I would imagine that the reactor scrammed and shut down. Sitting on the bottom the main coolant pumps would be sucking mud and would quickly foul. I guess we have to be thankful that one piece of Russian tech. worked.

A am afraid that the Russian fear of appearing weak by asking for help will probably cost the lives of all aboard. There is a good chance that they are all dead now. I helped look for the Scorpion. We all knew it could have been us.

------------------

Rick614

[Aussie Smith]

Guys

7 Years in the military taught me 1 thing about Truth - Truth is only a reality when you can see it with your own eyes.

I mean no disrespect to any on the board but well when I see Americans razing Russians over Chechnya etc - well I'd just like to remind them about CIA involvement in Honduras, Cuba, Chile, Cambodia etc. Nor should Russia take the moral high ground either as history is full of "incidents" where governments have decided that certain actions - while un-palatable to the general populous require an element of human sacrifice for "National Security".

All I feel for the poor Russian Sailors within the Kursk is sympathy - sympathy that we still feel it is our obligation to hold weapons of mass destruction over each others heads for the sake of political expediency - those 116 sailors have paid a high price for their country to retain its feeling of being a superpower - a price that if we were all rational and caring beings would never have needed to be paid.

Whether a Candle, a wreath or a ribbon - perhaps what we really need to be saying is I'm sorry!

Craig

[This message has been edited by Aussie Smith (edited 08-17-2000).]

[kunstler]

I hope and pray the poor boys down there get out alive and well and back to their loved ones.

kunstler

[Fionn]

Chill. Chill guys. I was simply pointing out an irony in the situation. We all know that the initial post wasn't referring to an oxygen candle etc. I just found it blackly ironic thata metaphorical candle ( which consumes oxygen) was being lit for men who were dying/have died due to lack of oxygen. There's no major depth of seriousness there just a blackly ironic situation.

Spook,

Sheesh, lighten up a bit. Regardless of the seriousness of the situation it IS blackly ironic to light a candle for people dyingfrom /having died of oxygen deprivation.

As for the critique part. I wasn't critiquing anyone. I was simply noting an irony. If you can't look at the fact that I was simply pointing out an irony without getting all tangled up in political correctness etc then its your own bad.

Sheesh, sometimes I wonder if you Americans want to create a world where no-one can point out errors or ironic occurences for fear of "hurting someone's feelings". Get a grip, it's the real world and feelings get trampled on and people die.

DUJ,

Yes, I acknowledge it was only speculation. And, as befits speculation I gave an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the divers thing... Divers chasing a sub moving at tactical speed? Not gonna happen. You can rule that one out right away. Anyways, anyone who wants nukes would get them from the periphery of the Soviet Union near a land border with a separatist state to help with a quick getaway.

As for the "lives being more important than nukes".. I disagree. 50 lives are FAR less important than 2 nukes. Hell, I'd expect any serving officer to happily shoot any 50 forum members if that was the price of keeping 2 nukes safe. Simple point is that keeping nukes safe is worth FAR more than a couple of dozen lives regardless of whether they are Russian or American or European.

As for the, "to say these men died from an accident is unworthy" theme you have going. **** Happens! Go to an Emergency Room near you some day and see the horrible ways people die due to tiny little errors they, or others, have made.

People OFTEN die for absolutely no good reason whatsoever. I suggest you get used to it because odds are that some people near you, or you yourself, are going to die needlessly and pointlessly some day. It'll be better for you and yours if you can simply accept said death at that stage and not look for "someone else to blame" ( which is the completely understandable reaction you are exhibiting here regarding the Kursk).

Now, onto this UK DSRV being sent in.

I was surprised to hear this last night. I think it is known that I would support letting the crew die to protect secrets ( if said secrets were really worth it) as that is just the harsh maths of war and near-war states.

What surprises me though is that the Soviets seem to be letting the DSRV in now when almost all hope is gone and it can probably do absolutely no good ( except get a couple of intel officers a nice close look at an Oscar).

[Trooper]

Whilst I don't argue that perhaps it might be better to kill 50 people than to give terrorists or black marketeers etc even one nuclear weapon, what are the chances that ETA, PIRA or any other such groups are likely to be able to undertake a salvage operation for the warheads under the Russian noses? You have both logistical and operational difficulties there. The worry over the nukes and reactors at this time are purely envronmental, and if it's a case of cheques and balances, I'd rather kill off 1000 trout and a few whales than the crew of the boat.

I may also dispute the Emergency room analogy. Whilst in both cases, bad luck or incompetence may have been the cause for the situation in the first place, for the crew of Kursk, it seems that incompetence/national pride may result in the fatalites here. I don't recall hearing of many occasions where the local citizenry of a town are too proud to call in an ambulance to help the stricken innocent.

Besides, how much of a good look at a half-flooded, 60 degree listed unpowered , unlit Oscar are a rescue crew going to get? I don't think even security issues are to blame here. I believe the BBC probably got it the most correctly when they said that there was the possibility that the navy chiefs simply didn't want to have to admit to the Putin that they needed help. That they would have been summarily fired for telling the truth was their concern.

NTM

[Seanachai]

First, just let me say that I feel nothing but sorrow for the loss of those Russian crewmen, and nothing but anguish for the plight of those whose rescue looks to be so unlikely.

Then, let me say, Unbekannte Jaeger, go have a beer and watch a Bond movie. Your intrigued-by-conspiracy ramblings aren't particularly apropos in a thread that was started as a hope for rescue, and rapidly turning into a memorial for the dead.

Also let me say to Mr. Johnson: We would all like to think that cruelty and corruption, atrocities and viciousness are all the work of a few horrible and evil men. Generally, people like yourself see these men living in other countries, espousing different beliefs from your own, and with utterly different values. You'll pay lip service to the fact that bad things occur in all nations, that no nation's history is free from stain. But you still want to believe that a few power hungry monsters are at the root of the world's horrors. Wake up to the world, Mr. Johnson, those bad people are all around you. Supposedly one 'power hungry lunatic' gives an order, eh? But who processes it? And passes it on? Who requisitions the equipment, and does the maintenance? And assisgns people to execute it? And marches them to the place of execution? Do you sincerely believe that if you killed one bad man all the others would stop in place, rub their eyes, and look around like bewildered sleepwalkers awaking? Your very comment that you'd be willing to 'go to Turkey and become a freedom fighter' reveals that you, too, would quickly become yet another of those 'innocent' people eagerly carrying out the orders of 'evil' leaders. No one is forced into evil, no one is tricked into evil. People willingly sign up for it, and then find rationales for why what they're doing isn't wrong, or why they had no other choice. Your naivete would be amusing, if it wasn't so soddingly sad.

And, finally:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson

Fionn, first I respect you very much... Just look at the history of Ireland or Scotland. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, that one's unarguable. Good lord, Fionn, haven't you ever thought of looking into the history of Ireland? You horrible slacker, you.

Sorry, occassionally a post is so otherwordly, you just have to acknowledge it in place, even if it's not appropriate to the thread.

------------------

After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[Fionn]

"It seems to me that the Russian higher-ups don't care very much about the fighting/dying man in the Russian military very much."

. Welcome to reality. I'd like to point out that there is nothing intrinsically "evil" in not caring for one's fighting man as much as Western societies do. Remember that Western pre-occupation with casualties is an abberation and that, world-wide, most leaders and nation states (or would-be nation states) don't care as much about casualties as the West. The West is obsessive about casualties.

Hell, according to Overly the Soviet Union lost 7950 soldiers per day during the Great Patriotic War so by that standard they're pretty casualty-averse these days.

"We will just have to wait and see if Moscow blames the accident on the captain of the Kursk, or puts them blame on themselves for not supplying the sub with a well trained crew, and well trained support to prevent accidents that kill 116 men trying to keep them in power."

I'd like to note at this point that IF this accident was caused by a premature torpedo detonation in the tubes ( as seems quite possible) that the British and Americans have both lost submarines to this cause also. Certainly the crew wasn't as well trained as an all-professional Western crew would be but don't immediately go blaming everything on "shoddy Russians". **** Happens and people die for the most inane reasons. Life is NOT as precious or inviolable as most Westerners think.

" Third no I did not see or hear about those videos of Chechens killing Russians, nor did I ever doubt they could be very cruel also."

Indeed. Well, before you go condemning one side in a conflict and supporting another be sure to gather information on what the side your support did to incite its attackers next time.

" Just look at the history of Ireland or Scotland."

Ah, the inevitable "Irish" dig below the belt. Fine, you want to play that game... OR look at what happened to the indigineous indiands or let's look at the tactics of some of your GREAT heroes such as Custer... the man whose greatest military tactic was luring the plains indians warriors away from their villages with a small portion of his force and then swooping in with the rest of his force to butcher the women and children savagely.

Or let's talk about the divisions which ended the Pacifc War without taking a single prisoner ( and let's just forget the crap about all Japanese dying for the Emperor.. Quite a few surrendered but were shot out of hand later.)

"But just look at Chernobol or Mir to see how the Russian government puts their troops in situations that they have no control over."

Hell, I could point to the Sherman and say much the same thing. You can't condemn a country just because it doesn't supply its soldiers with the latest super-weapons etc.

"Things go bad and the Russian government turns the leaders of these projects into scapegoats and blame the accident on them."

As do ALL governments. Whose fault was Challenger? Was it the fault of the government? Nope, it was the fault of some mid-level sacrifices who took the fall to save others higher up.

" My only point was that most western media, takes everything Putin says about chechens as the truth."

From your writing I take it you're an American. Americans have a tendency to centralise and think that the world and universe rotates around them. Remember that unless you have access to British, French, German, Dutch etc media outlets and watch them then you can't really speak for the attitude of the "Western Media". All you can speak for, IMO, is the attitude of the "American Media" ( which is a VERY different thing). I can assure you that as someone who has the option of watching CNN or NBC etc I find their coverage of these events to be partisan and very superficial. Other media agencies seem to get more people on the ground and cover things in more detail ( albeit with a pro-chechen bias).

"Its not like the U.N. has any observers over there, telling us whats really going on. I'm just trying to read between the lines. Do you believe everything Putin has said about them?"

NO, of course not. BUT, as someone who reads what the Chechens themselves release and follows the reports of the various reporters being fed by Government and Chechen sources I don't have to rely on Putin alone. I get to evaluate the same information as reported on by four, sometimes five different perspectives.

Commisar,

To be fair to Johnson you are going to have to admit that there is evidence of genocide. There are internment and torture camps, including the rather famous rail-borne camp which shuttles around the country to avoid fact-finding missions from other countries ( Quite a good little idea the Russians have there and something I'd expect to see copied in future conflicts. Certainly keeps it out of the media cameras' lenses.).

And, let's face it, given that they were turfed out of their own country by Stalin during WW2 and only allowed return in the late 50s, after losing a minimum of a quarter of their population they DO have some very legitimate grievances.

So, both sides really have a reason for fighting and both sides are committing atrocities. Johnson seems to be unaware of the videotaped beheading of Russian POWs ( they've even sent the tapes to the kids' mothers so the mothers can see their kids being beheaded... nice folks...) and you seem to be unaware/in denial of the various torture camps, bombing of refugees etc.

Both happen and the NEITHER of the two sides are all clean and waging a "just war".

However, probably the worst thing that could happen for the Chechen people would be an outright Chechen victory as they simply don't have the internal cohesion to establish a proper government and it'd just end up with in-fighting and little regional leaders battling eachother for years. Still, whatever happens it won't be pretty. Just don't all be making it worse by not seeing BOTH sides of the story guys.

[Fionn]

Trooper,

As regards the 50 worth less than 2 nukes thing... I was speaking in wide terms and not solely limited to the Kursk. As far as I'm concerned any nukes aborad haven't gone anywhere and neither will they. The logisitical issues are simply too much bother. Like I said, any rogue nukes will come from border territories with a nearby border to a state unfriendly to the Soviets ( generally accepted to be an Islamic state).

As for the ER analogy.. Well, I still abide by my **** Happens rule . You can, and it seems do, differ and that's cool. As for the secrecy thing. I'm sure job security factored into it but I still think that wanting to keep secrets was also a large factor, and probably the largest.. We will never know though unfortunately. We'll never know for sure.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Fionn has just about said all that can be said. Yeah, I think that was the only thing I did not respond to, was every nation with subs has had their share of accidents, same with airplanes. And yes I was born in a part of North America that is ruled by the United States federal government. Sad but very true I am not capable of access to Dutch, British, German media. Except through international internet news sites, and I'm very upset that I'm forced to only have access to CNN/NBC which spends most of its time telling us which new hairstyle of (fill in name of famous person here) has gotten this week.

Seanachai, I won't disput anything you said. Most of it was right on. I am a little disapointed that you think my naivete is so sad. Not that you care. My whole line of thought on this matter is if you have to fight at least make the world a better place when your done. I don't know If that is Naivete, and I don't care. If that was the goal of the entire world, too make it better, then I would be a very happy man.

BTW:"Good lord, Fionn, haven't you ever thought of

looking into the history of Ireland? You horrible slacker, you." was a damn good one. I smiled big. I am a bit of a fool.

I too totally feel sorry for any man, woman, child, or soldier and their familys; If they die needlessly or in vain. I think I made my point?

[guachi]

Fionn, a minor nitpick about your mention of American war 'heroes'

I am a Montanan and the Little Bighorn Battlefield is practically in my back yard. You are the first person I have ever heard describe Custer as a hero.

The same goes for Sherman. Assuming there are any Americans who would recognize the name, I doubt many would consider him a hero. Certainly not many Southerners would.

In the 19th century perhaps people might have thought the above men were heroes, but last I checked that was two centuries previous.

Jason