Sgt. Spoot Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 There's something I've noticed that's been irking me. I want to know about how many casualties your average tank crew takes when their tank is not only blown up but brews up. Quite a bit I see this happen in CM but the crew gets out with, usually, one casualty. Now, if there's something i'm missing, please, please, please inform me. And then inform me on the fastest way to kill the crew. ------------------ "And that's how you take out a Pillbox using a kleenex, a paper clip and a rabid monkey. Any questions?" -Sgt. Spoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 I've seen a pretty respectable mix of anywhere from one to all surviving. The curve seems to peak at 1 or 2 casualties. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Fast answer... My "normal" vehicle crew casualties is 1/2 to 1/3 of the original crew. "fastest way to kill the crew" I think there is now way to assure crew casualties when knocking out a vehicle... When they are outside, that's another matter. João Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 I beleive 21st Army Group conducted a fairly in depth study on the subject...ETO 44 - 45. The results indicated an average of 1.4 casulties amongst tank crews from knocked out tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Most brew ups I've seen result in about 1/2 casualties on average. I have seen a couple with no survivors. ------------------ Most people assume that the M in US vehicle designations means "Model". Thus, the Medium Tank M4 Sherman would be the "Model #4" Medium tank. This is incorrect. The M actually stands for "Mortality" and the number represents the life expectancy of the vehicle in minutes. - Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Hmm maybe a bit more reading is in order, even during Normandy with the ronson Sherman’s the number of crewmen as casualties was surprisingly low. Read up on operations such as Goodwood and Epsom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 I think if you get a catastrophic kill the entire crew is killed or trapped in the burning tank. However you shouldn't think of the normal kill brew up as happening instantaneously, the fire starts small and then grows to engulf the tank giving the surviving crewmembers time to escape the flames. Then again I could be entirely mistaken ------------------ Work is the curse of the drinking class. I have nothing else to say. Ya, quote that you rat bastards. -Meeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And then inform me on the fastest way to kill the crew.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sneak a SMG squad close to the tank, drill a Panzerfaust into it's side, and then let loose on any one climbing out. ------------------ ...This is Romeo-Foxtrot, shall we dance?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 I see 1-2 crew casualties, on average, caused by knock-Outs and brews. However, I have seen an entire crew wiped out in a catastrophic explosion. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Interestingly enough, one account I've read stated that tankers were more scared of Pfausts and 'schrecks than they were of AP. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...a Panzerfaust strike usually set a tank on fire, unlike the solid AP shot from a gun which frequently went right through, or knocked off a track.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Neilands, Robin. The Desert Rats: 7th Armoured Division 1940-1945. (London: Orion Books, LTD. 1997) p. 216 The book is largely an oral history, and while the author's voice is not hugely compelling, when he lets the soldiers talk the book's great. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Spoot Posted November 21, 2000 Author Share Posted November 21, 2000 Well, I understand the "Slow fire" thing, so I can see how the casualites might be lower now. I guess this just made me think because of (at least in my games) the constant death of an entire crew when a vehicle is struck by a 'faust, or 'schreck or (Heaven help the Jeep MG) a Tank's HE round. Essentially anything that was fired from a gun caused massive casualties to the crew of the vehicle. Any opinions on that? ------------------ "And that's how you take out a Pillbox using a kleenex, a paper clip and a rabid monkey. Any questions?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullus Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Monty committed hundreds of tanks in his operations (Goodwood, Totalize, Bluecoat, etc), because the British Army could take tank losses, but not excessive infantry losses. Even losing five hundred tanks, you are only talking about 2000 - 3000 men total, as opposed to 10,000 - 20,0000 men in an infantry division. Of course, the schrecks & Pzfausts used a HEAT warhead which shot a flaming tongue of molten metal inside the target, which would ignite ammo (and the odd crew member) and cause the larger casualties rate. I'd prefer to be hit by an 88mm AP as opposed to a Pzfaust (though both would still be very ugly regardless). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 As I pointed out, it is my understanding, backed up by anecdotal evidence such as the quote I provided, that solid AP shot, ie, the type of shot which was generally fired at tanks, was typically not as deadly to the crew as were man-portable LATW. Let me see if I can dig up another quote... Here are a few: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "The next moment we were hit. A shell burts beneath the turret, completely destroying the engine controls, and one of the tracks was severed. No one was hurt, and we received the order to evacuate at once."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"...we were hit by an 88 which entered just in front of my feet, injuring the sub turret gunner, he subsequently died from his wounds. The driver was injured, but not severly, just bruised... As for myself, I did not even have a scratch, but the tank was on fire and I had to get out fast..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (my emphasis) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "The Tiger traversed its big 88mm gun very slightly. Wham! We were hit... A sheet of flame licked over the turret and my mouth was full of grit and burnt paint.'Bale out,' I yelled and leaped clear. I saw my crew bale out.... Miraculously they were all safe."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (my emphasis) All quotes again from The Desert Rats by Neillands. Several of those interviewed had several tanks shot out from under them between '41 and '45. While getting hit by an AP round wasn't pleasant, and was often fatal for one or two of the crew, it wasn't by any means certain death for all inside. I also wanted to point out that in the second and third acounts, the tanks brewed up, and in the second account only one crewman died, while in the third all were uninjured. Scenarios where everyone died certainly happened, and CM models this, but I think it happened less than one might expect. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Spoot Posted November 22, 2000 Author Share Posted November 22, 2000 I'm not disagreeing with you there Chup. You've put up more than enough substantial evidence to show that everyone did not neccessarily die after a tank was knocked out. However, the (second)question i'm asking is based more on vehicles. I've seen Halftracks carrying an entire squad of men get his, and EVERYONE is dead, no survivors (especially if said vehicle brews up). I can't help but think just 1 man could've gotten out in time. Now, i'm sure there's some simple explanation for this so don't flame me if there is. I'm just tryin to learn. ------------------ "And that's how you take out a Pillbox using a kleenex, a paper clip and a rabid monkey. Any questions?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Spoot Posted November 22, 2000 Author Share Posted November 22, 2000 I'm not disagreeing with you there Chup. You've put up more than enough substantial evidence to show that everyone did not neccessarily die after a tank was knocked out. However, the (second)question i'm asking is based more on vehicles. I've seen Halftracks carrying an entire squad of men get his, and EVERYONE is dead, no survivors (especially if said vehicle brews up). I can't help but think just 1 man could've gotten out in time. Now, i'm sure there's some simple explanation for this so don't flame me if there is. I'm just tryin to learn. ------------------ "And that's how you take out a Pillbox using a kleenex, a paper clip and a rabid monkey. Any questions?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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