Solution to crew shooting problem!

[Hamstersss]

Arms for crews are admittedly UNDERpowered. They don't include carbines and are merely pistols.

People who want BTS to sacrifice realism (Tank crews) for gameplay are people who are caught up on the ubertank theory, where TCs are brilliant and never mistakenly turn their attention on the wrong thing. Does this also mean you want Tanks to avoid FOs, Jeeps and HTs? Most of these are just as dangerous as crews to the tank, right?

Besides, who doesn't like to shoot those bastards in the back.

[ianc]

OK, some fair enough points have been made, but in the spirit of supporting Intelweenie's original proposal, I'll comment on them:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Keep the crews but give them ZERO ammo and ZERO weapons.

You bail out from a smoking wreck and you don't have time to grab anything<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite so. But in that case, I ask again, what are they there for except to cause headaches? They serve no useful purpose, and cause some major (and unrealistic) disadvantages.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The only viable solution is to remove the crews, tanks, HTs, guns, arty, sharpshooters, schreks, houses<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm... yeah...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Historically, crews DID exist after they left their tanks. They should be left in the game, but, they should not be a high target priority.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but since they serve no useful purpose, they are a needless abstraction which in their present form only complicate matters in a sometimes very undesirable way. In designing the game Steve and Charles must have asked themselves this question repeatedly about every bell and whistle. "Should we include Cullen hedgerow cutters? How about Tungsten ammunition?" In those cases they were very correct (IMHO) to include them, since those features do have a very noticeable impact on the game, and the manner in which they are coded is very well implemented and adds to the realism in a demonstrable way. Do crews have these same facets? Presently, I'd have to say no.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Likewise, the enym crews are targets. Legitimate and authenntic targets. It's not as if in reality they would run around with a sign that reads "hey I am a crewmember I am sacrosanct". Try to eliminate or capture the enemy crews.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is also a modicum of absolute truth in this. However, in my experience there are usually two phases to a game. The first phase consists of you trying to muster every fig and whisker of your available firepower to neutralize the enemy's combat capabilities. You will be concentrating your resources on enemy AFV's, crew-served weapons, and infantry. You will not be concentrating your firepower on killing crews, since they don't (or shouldn't) have an appreciable combat value.

The second phase of the game is when it's pretty much all over but the shouting for either you or your opponent, in which case killing crews will be like shooting fish in a barrel. Again, what's the point?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You got FOW on. Your tank takes out a halftrack or another tank. The crew bales and heads for cover. Your tank then loses track of that crew. (Tell me, would you concentrate on three guys comming out of a knocked out tank or halftrack and running for the woods while there's other things bigger and badder trying to remove YOU from play?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but unfortunately that's often the way things work out in the present implementation, which is what's sparked this discussion to begin with.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The next time your tank spots that crew, your tank doesn't know it's an ex-crew from a burned out wreak but maybe a three man zook team or a machine gun team.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, but realistically, your tank should never spot that crew again. Traumatized, deafened, possibly severely wounded or assisting their wounded comrades, and without any means to effectively carry on the fight since they are unable to reman their weapon, they should be beating feet as fast and as far as possible away from live enemy AFV's and infantry. No?

Again, unfortunately, crews don't currently display this behaviour because of difficulties in the algorithms which control their retreat.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just because I'm in the minority doesn't mean I'm wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct. But it does mean that more often than not, the way crews are currently implemented is not found satisfactory, hence the purpose of this discussion is to propose means of ameliorating this difficulty in a workable fashion.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My point is not whether or not crews should be a threat, but rather whether a major recode is the solution when some folks are (in my not-so-humble opinion) maybe missing the 'spirit' of the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's just the point of this proposal. I'll admit up front that I know very little of how difficult any of these suggested solutions would be to implement. However, from my uninformed viewpoint, it seems it would be far easier to simply eliminate a particular item from the game rather than attempt to alter, modify or enhance its behaviour in ways that are satisfactory to the majority of players in a majority of situations.

As for the 'spirit of the game', to me this means representing those factors which can have a real and valuable effect on deciding the outcome of a particular combat in a believable manner. Granted, in real life, crews could possibly have this effect, but since they're not allowed to reman their weapons, and have no appreciable firepower, why represent them? Their removal can have no adverse effect on the ability to simulate realistic combat and tactics within the game.

I don't have any real expectations that crews will be removed from the game because it is, admittedly, a rather radical change, and would probably engender a storm of criticism from disgruntled players who want them, despite their apparent uselessness in the game.

I wonder though, if a toggle were introduced in the game to either use them in their present revision, or not use them at all, how many players would actually leave them in?

Have a good day gentlemen,

ianc

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...it seems it would be far easier to simply eliminate a particular item from the game rather than attempt to alter, modify or enhance its behaviour in ways that are satisfactory to the majority of players in a majority of situations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Ian, what you're proposing *is* altering behavior. Why are surviving crew members not valid targets?

-dale

[ianc]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But Ian, what you're proposing *is* altering behavior<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not alteration, but elimination. Of a specific 'feature' that is.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why are surviving crew members not valid targets?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Dale me lad, in fact they ARE valid targets, in the same way that a tin can on a fence post is a valid target when there's a gorilla charging at you. Once (if) you've killed the gorilla, there just doesn't seem to be much point in plinking that tin can anymore...

If you'll allow me a rather ill-conceived analogy; say Steve and Charles decided to simulate lint in the soldier's pockets. Hurrah for realism, because in fact there actually was plenty of lint in pockets. The question is, what does this actually buy us in terms of gameplay?

ianc

[aka_tom_w]

Again........

I like the way Crews have been modeled in v1.04

It works fine for me.

I think Steve and Charles have handled the bailed crew problem just fine.

They are brittle ( ! ) and they are nearly blind, I think they can only see 25 -50 meters so what use are they in "gamey " play.

This aspect of the game as it is now modeled is now just fine the way it is IMHO.

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Remember that no dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ianc]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>They are brittle ( ! ) and they are nearly blind, I think they can only see 25 -50 meters so what use are they in "gamey " play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is quite true Tom, but I think this discussion hinges not on the intrinsic combat capabilities of crews, but rather their effet on other units in the game, chiefly tanks.

Hey Henri, how about a little backup here?

ianc

[M Hofbauer]

"Ah, but realistically, your tank should never spot that crew again. Traumatized, deafened, possibly severely wounded or assisting their wounded comrades, and without any means to effectively carry on the fight since they are unable to reman their weapon, they should be beating feet as fast and as far as possible away from live enemy AFV's and infantry. No?"

No. I mean, not absolutely.

There are pictures of german tank crews sporting Panzervernichtungsabzeichen. That fact alone should answer your question, and question your answer/POV.

(Panzervernichtungsabzeichen - tank destruction badges - were awarded for the single-handed destruction of enemy armor by a single soldier in close assault. The only way for a tank crew to get one would be to destroy enemy tanks after they had bailed from their tank. Which is indeed what they did.)

You are risking me scanning them, something I would really not like to do.

[ianc]

Aha! I'm on a one-man crusade here! I love it!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No. I mean, not absolutely.

There are pictures of german tank crews sporting Panzervernichtungsabzeichen. That fact alone should answer your question, and question your answer/POV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I'm quite sure this was the case, and also well within the bounds of realistic possibility.

Is it possible in the abstracted realm of the game? No, no, and no.

I would like to see those scans for my own entertainment though!

ianc

[MadDog0606]

Everything in the game has a purpose. I for one am in the so called vocal minority when it comes to crews being left in the game.

Crews serve a purpose as a distraction for the other side. Same way those stupid jeeps do. If they are a green crew, chances are they will be routed the second their ride gets knocked out and will be useless for the rest of the game. If it's an elite crew and there is still one man left I'll use him as cannon fodder if I want (it's my game and I can do what I want ) and maybe he'll take a few enemy with him when he goes down for the count. Maybe he will even distract a tank long enough for me to kill it. War is not fair, you fight to win.

Your tanks should have infantry support when they go running around the battlefield. That is one of the purposes of your infantry. Infantry is used to suppress antitank weapons (or the misplaced enemy crew ). If your tank as infantry support (like it's suppose to) then the tanks infantry squad takes care of the misplaced enemy crew and/or antitank weapon and your tank is not distracted. That Village Bogage (however you spell it) battle was a unique situation. You notice you have no infantry support at the start so your tank has to take everything on the battlefield seriously and kill it. Your tank gets distracted and dies, that's life. In the battles I play I usually don't let my tanks get to close to enemy infantry/crews unless I have friendly infantry nearby. I use to think tanks were the king of the battlefield and could win on their own. They can't in CM. Tanks get distracted (just like real life) and need support from infantry and artillery.

I don't get it. Everybody was screaming for a realistic game. You got as close as one as can be had and able to run on different speed CPUs and graphic cards. Now people are talking about removing stuff (crews) because they distract the tanks from killing things on the battlefield. I for one would like more stuff on the battlefield. I would like to have animals in the forest to cause that green trooper to shoot off his rife as his squad is sneaking up to attack my MLR. But I can't have that, yet.

Crews were on the battlefields in WW2. They were a distraction for tanks. During the time period covered by this game almost every squad had an antitank device. In the heat of a battle your going to tell me that you would ask questions first before killing something that isn't wearing the same uniform as you. I wouldn't care which direction the man or men are running, they are dead if they are not on my side and are within my line of sight. Please let me know how to tell, in the heat of a battle,

if someone is carring an antitank device, I would really like to know.

By the way, IMHO, I belive only a minority of the people who bought this game post on this forum. So, you may think your in the majority, but the real silent MAJORITY out there may just want the crews left in the game (as target practice). So the next time somebody writes that an item should be changed in the game by Steve and Charles because a majority of the posts say so, think again. That may not be the case.

[GilaMonster]

A very interesting thread. I have nothing constructive to add but to say that I would probably enjoy the game even more if the vehicle crews were done away with altogether. I know nothing of modeling realism of the WWII battlefield. I just think it would be a funner game to play if the crews were removed. They are just too distracting to the tanks, etc..

Gila

[M Hofbauer]

hehe, sorry, ianc, but then you should not have agreed that you think that it is very well possible!

the way I see it, your insightfulness and historical awareness save me quite a bit of hassle (really!) ! thanks

[Tiger]

"Crews should be removed because they add nothing to the game and they distract me while playing and add nothing to the game."

I think this mentality is wrong. Crews were a part of any battlefield where vehicles, tanks, and guns were present. They occassionally did have an effect on the battle. If they distract you, well good. They're supposed to.

Also, ambush makers are not immediate auto-target crutches. If you're unit is firing at something already, it is NOT set up for an ambush. If this happens to be a crew, well such is the fortunes of war. No crew is going to stay around after a tank starts hitting them anyway. When the 60 second timer ends, give your tank a new order. I think the complaint about crew targeting really stems from people expecting too much from their units per 60-second time period.

I've played CM quite a bit and have yet to notice any problems that need "fixing" or "eleminated". The 1.04 patch contained new code that made tanks less susecptable to firing at low priority targets.

Crews add quite alot to the game and it's the ability to deal with the various issues that crop up in a battle that make CM so unique.

-johnS

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ianc:

Hey Henri, how about a little backup here?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since I started this thread, I feel I have to clarify the issue a bit, especially since I have been a staunch defender of BTS against exaggerated criticism with respect to the behavior of tanks vs crews; so here is the issue.

1) The specific problem of crews in the game is that they SOMETIMES cause tanks to act in a very unrealistic manner by traversing their turrets away from the direction of major threats to shoot at the crews.

2) This behavior is mostly noticeable only in scenarios with a lot of disabled vehicles where the number of crews from disabled vehicles is fairly large, so it is normal that many players have not noticed the behavior, if they have not played such scenarios.

3) I suggested the possibility of removing crews altogether because I don't think that it is possible to program tanks to be smart enough to know when not to target crews: this is a problem of CONTEXT, and NO AI in the world is any good at taking context into account, and it would be unreasonable to ask BTS to achieve it in this game.

4) In most scenarios, the number of tanks is small, and it takes only ONE such incident to change the balance of battle.

Yes crews did exist in WW2 battles, but cases where they were used as recon or for holding objectives are negligible in number.And I doubt whether crews from disabled vehicles actually ran all over the place in the war; it seems to me more probable that they ran only far enough to find some hiding place until things were quiet enough to move on.

And yes, tank commanders DID make mistakes, but not of the kind of traversing their turrets away from the main line of battle when more dangerous threats were known to be near or were being hunted for.

Comments to the effect that it would be unreasonable to ask BTS to spend a lot of time to change this excellent game are correct, which is why a solution that is easy to program is desirable.

A good compromise might be to keep the crews from disabled vehicles or guns, but to make them invisible to tanks unless they are in within 20 degrees of the turret facing, and to make them unable to recon.

Henri

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And yes, tank commanders DID make mistakes, but not of the kind of traversing their turrets away from the main line of battle when more dangerous threats were known to be near or were being hunted for.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, Henri, that's a bold statement. So tank commanders never made that kind of mistake. Good to know. I thought they were mere humans.

Disregarding the fact that the tank commanders aren't being modeled by CM, but rather the tank crew's behavior (two very different things), remember that enemy soldiers running around the battlefield represent a threat, current or potential, and you should kill them if you can.

And I remember reading somewhere that battles are noisy and confusing, and sometimes task prioritization is a problem.

-dale

[Kingfish]

Hey, this looks like a killer Mosh pit, so I'm jumping in...

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned so far is the use of crews to guard prisoners.

Some of us do not agree with this tactic, saying that it is unrealistic and therefore should be coded to prevent such use. However, consider this quote (ironically from a person who opposes the this use):

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But, even for vehicle crews...I have been thinking...

From what I have read it seems that 99% of the time individual ground pounders or at most a pair of men would be assigned to escort POWs to the rear. And it seems, if it was possible they would use the walking-wounded to escort the POWs on their way back to the aid station.

BUT, you see, we can't do that. Walking wounded are IMO not modelled in CM (they are out of action) and we can't detach just one or two men to escort the POWs. So we either have to send an entire team (up to 6 men!) that could well out number the POWs ...or we can use vehicle crews to 'plug the hole'.

I don't know, really. But like I said, if you can do it and no agreement is made beforehand it is all fair IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1000 cool points to whomever can guess the person that said that.

So you see, there is a use for crews after that have been "Dismounted". Gamey or not is up to you and your opponent. Now, If you are going to let the AI take control and exit the crews, or make them disappear altogether, then there should be provisions made to prevent prisoners from escaping. The AI should also exit them to the rear, same as crews. Otherwise you will be forced to guard one captured man with a half squad.

Just my $2.00 (pre-tax)

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Wow, I've had the **** hit the fan before, but never like this...

[RMC]

I love crews. I wanna hug em squeeze and hold em tight. They make me feel good.

I don't think crews should be removed from the game. The only scenario in which this seemed a problem was the villers bocage single battle. For whatever reason it doesn't appear in the VB operation.

Crews serve game functions apart from the fact that the tanks need crews.

Crews represent highly trained specialists. It is easier to produce tanks than it is to train quality crews. Crews need to be protected by the player as much as possible. Players should be penalized for losing crews. Sometimes that means making them hide, other times they need to skedaddle. I also like using crews as guards for POWs since most of the time my objective is to get them off the map and out of harms way.

To remove them to make tank fighting more enjoyable is misguided. Tanks are not the raison d'etre for CM.