Myles Keogh Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Playing a huge CMRT scenario with a number of company-level heavy weapon mortar sections. Early in the battle, one section lost its weapons platoon HQ to an arty barrage which I thought would sever the C2 link between its two mortars and any other HQ/FO, but it didn't. Other HQ/FO's were still able to call upon those mortars. Yet, when I later moved that section's company HQ, the link was broken. After that, the only way I could use those mortars for indirect fire was through their own section HQ. The company HQ was always in visual and/or voice contact with the section HQ (which is why I thought the link wasn't broken when the platoon HQ was lost) but moving it broke the link. I also "policed-up" the dead weapons platoon HQ pixeltruppen through buddy-aid. Did also play a part in the break? After that, I noticed that each mortar's green contact indicators showed that it was in contact with the section HQ, the platoon HQ (??) and the battalion HQ, but out-of-contact with the company HQ despite it being in visual/voice contact. So, how was that indirect fire C2 link still able to work after losing the platoon HQ, but was later permanently broken? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Sounds like a glitch if I understand you correctly (and if your observations are 100% correct ). Individual mortar sections having lost their direct HQ should still be able to be called on for indirect fires if they have close c2 with a higher HQ. At least that is my experience / belief how it should work. It is also strange that it did work when the Platoon HQ casualties were still around, but not after they had been medevac'ed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlXII Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 21 hours ago, Myles Keogh said: After that, I noticed that each mortar's green contact indicators showed that it was in contact with the section HQ, the platoon HQ (??) and the battalion HQ, but out-of-contact with the company HQ despite it being in visual/voice contact. So, how was that indirect fire C2 link still able to work after losing the platoon HQ, but was later permanently broken? I belive that the green dots show this... - That the mortar is in contact with the section HQ - That THE SECTION HQ is in contact with the platoon HQ - That THE PLATONN HQ is not in contact with the company HQ - That THE COMPANY HQ is in contact with the battlion HQ That is...It does not show what the individual team is 'personally' in contact with...Atleast thats the way i understand the green dots... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, CarlXII said: That is...It does not show what the individual team is 'personally' in contact with...Atleast thats the way i understand the green dots... As long as the Mortar section has a radio any HQ with or without radio can call for a mission. Don't ask me how but it is the way it is. One example is Hammer's Flank first battle. The Mortar FO unit doesn't have a radio but is still able to call indirect fire missions. I found he needs to be really close to the enemy unit you wish to target. I found two hundred metres for him to be effective. Possibly it is modelled he is using his own position as a TRP by using a hypothetical flare. Having him close to his Regiment HQ with radio and use the FO like a US or British FO is not much use. I had the best result by calling the mission 200 metres from his position. The Green Dots I think you mean the Radio Buttons in the Command Panel. Edited October 21, 2023 by chuckdyke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlXII Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 20 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: The Green Dots I think you mean the Radio Buttons in the Command Panel. No...these ones... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 39 minutes ago, CarlXII said: No...these ones... Yes these are called radio buttons but different people give them different names. You don't need them for Artillery Missions. The one you are using is the US 60 mm if I am not mistaken. The first option is direct fire indirect if it is not possible. In your case I can't read it ok you have less than 20 shells so indirect is not really an option. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) The Green Dots are the C2 artillery can be called by most HQ doesn't matter or they are in C2. If another unit call for the mortar your mortar HQ needs to have a radio and be nearby. With US no problem they have the best Radio Communication in WW2. Even if you are in vocal C2 you need a radio for units outside your C2. Edited October 21, 2023 by chuckdyke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brille Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 How far away was the deceased platoon hq from the mortar team ? My idea would be that even though their superior hq was dead they still used the radio to communicate to their higher ups. It could be the same as with vehicle radios: nearby units can "borrow" it to send or receive information even if it is not their platton´s/companie´s radio. But once you buddy aided them the radio and/or the C2 link "vanished" too ?! Would need to test that to confirm. But in a similar way you can use dead soldiers as ammo dumps too. For example I had a antitank gun with their ammo bearers: The ammo bearers got killed close to the gun by a stray shot of an T34. However the ATG still had access to the ammo they were carrying. But as soon as they got buddy aided away, the ATG rounds vanished as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 11 minutes ago, Brille said: How far away was the deceased platoon hq from the mortar team ? Easy to find out the game will show out of contact or the way it is shown above he is within C2 with his HQ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 19 minutes ago, Brille said: But in a similar way you can use dead soldiers as ammo dumps too. The leader maybe a casualty but if his RTO is not they keep the radio contact or a 2xo is elevated as an HQ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlXII Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 25 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: Yes these are called radio buttons but different people give them different names. You don't need them for Artillery Missions. The one you are using is the US 60 mm if I am not mistaken. The first option is direct fire indirect if it is not possible. In your case I can't read it ok you have less than 20 shells so indirect is not really an option. I realized that we are probably talking about the same thing as soon as i had posted previous reply...These dots have nothing to to with RADIO though...thats what got me somewhat confused ...Any type of contact... radio or other will influence these dots to be red or green. The picture is simply a screenshot from the editor showing a mortarteam and...its dots...It has nothing to do with the original question/situation... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, CarlXII said: These dots have nothing to to with RADIO though.. Company is mostly in contact with his Regiment or Battalion by Radio if it is the case a Radio Icon will pop up. Lots of people call it radio buttons in other graphics not only in Combat Mission. In your screenshot he is in distant visual contact I don't know or that is good enough to be in contact with the fire direction centre. US HQs have Radios which must be nearby I keep them inside four action squares. But the C2 is otherwise irrelevant. I just checked it out a Sherman HQ with a different C2 could call Mortar Support because the Mortar has a Radio nearby. Edited October 21, 2023 by chuckdyke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Keogh Posted October 21, 2023 Author Share Posted October 21, 2023 25 minutes ago, Brille said: How far away was the deceased platoon hq from the mortar team ? My idea would be that even though their superior hq was dead they still used the radio to communicate to their higher ups. It could be the same as with vehicle radios: nearby units can "borrow" it to send or receive information even if it is not their platton´s/companie´s radio. But once you buddy aided them the radio and/or the C2 link "vanished" too ?! Would need to test that to confirm. But in a similar way you can use dead soldiers as ammo dumps too. For example I had a antitank gun with their ammo bearers: The ammo bearers got killed close to the gun by a stray shot of an T34. However the ATG still had access to the ammo they were carrying. But as soon as they got buddy aided away, the ATG rounds vanished as well. This is my suspicion as to this issue. That removing the dead weapons platoon HQ somehow permanently broke the link. (At game's start, that platoon HQ was in radio contact of its company HQ and in close visual contact of its section HQ.) After the loss of its platoon HQ, the section HQ was taken under direct command of the company HQ as shown by close visual/voice contact symbols and for a while I was able to call upon that section's mortars from anywhere on the map. However, ever since I policed-up the dead platoon HQ being in contact with company HQ doesn't seem to have any effect in making those mortars available to any other HQ/FO. Both are listed as "out of contact" to all except their own sec. HQ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) The Mortar needs only a radio nearby belonging to his C2 if the Platoon HQ is gone the Company HQ can take over if he is nearby. The Fire Direction Centre is outside the C2 on the map you need a radio to be in contact with the fire direction centre. Otherwise use the 60 mm in the direct fire mode. Edited October 21, 2023 by chuckdyke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 You don't need to be in C2 to call in a Fire Mission you even don't need a radio. The unit in this case a mortar unit needs a radio. Somehow any HQ is always in Communication with the FDC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 This type of situation is often easier to understand / figure out if there are screenshots showing the units involved along with the user interface panel. Sometimes using Alt-Z to show command links will also help. On 10/20/2023 at 8:13 AM, Myles Keogh said: I also "policed-up" the dead weapons platoon HQ pixeltruppen through buddy-aid. Did also play a part in the break? I've never seen buddy-aid break C2 and don't think the game mechanics work that way. IMO this can probably be ruled out. On 10/20/2023 at 8:13 AM, Myles Keogh said: Early in the battle, one section lost its weapons platoon HQ to an arty barrage which I thought would sever the C2 link between its two mortars and any other HQ/FO, but it didn't. Other HQ/FO's were still able to call upon those mortars. Yet, when I later moved that section's company HQ, the link was broken. After that, the only way I could use those mortars for indirect fire was through their own section HQ. The foot movement of a HQ can temporarily cause a break in C2 which can (but not usually) remain broken for one or two minutes after movement has stopped. The company HQ was probably not moving continuously or often enough to cause this C2 problem but just to be thorough I mentioned it. IMO the following rules apply: To fire indirect on map mortars must be within close visual C2 (12 Action Spots) of their chain of command or within voice C2 (6 A/S) of any authorized HQ, XO, FO team or within 2 A/S of a radio equipped vehicle. I suspect the answer to what happened involve the above rules but it is a little challenging to figure out the details without screenshots of the units at the time with the UI. On 10/20/2023 at 8:13 AM, Myles Keogh said: The company HQ was always in visual and/or voice contact with the section HQ (which is why I thought the link wasn't broken when the platoon HQ was lost) but moving it broke the link. There are two types of visual contact. Close visual and distant visual. For indirect fire distant visual is not good enough. Close visual (12 A/S) with the units chain of command (so I think Company HQ in this case?) would be needed. Not sure which type of visual the unit had. Maybe this is it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Keogh Posted October 21, 2023 Author Share Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said: This type of situation is often easier to understand / figure out if there are screenshots showing the units involved along with the user interface panel. Sometimes using Alt-Z to show command links will also help. I've never seen buddy-aid break C2 and don't think the game mechanics work that way. IMO this can probably be ruled out. The foot movement of a HQ can temporarily cause a break in C2 which can (but not usually) remain broken for one or two minutes after movement has stopped. The company HQ was probably not moving continuously or often enough to cause this C2 problem but just to be thorough I mentioned it. IMO the following rules apply: To fire indirect on map mortars must be within close visual C2 (12 Action Spots) of their chain of command or within voice C2 (6 A/S) of any authorized HQ, XO, FO team or within 2 A/S of a radio equipped vehicle. I suspect the answer to what happened involve the above rules but it is a little challenging to figure out the details without screenshots of the units at the time with the UI. There are two types of visual contact. Close visual and distant visual. For indirect fire distant visual is not good enough. Close visual (12 A/S) with the units chain of command (so I think Company HQ in this case?) would be needed. Not sure which type of visual the unit had. Maybe this is it? As stated in my last post, the company HQ is in CLOSE visual contact with the section HQ. In fact, they're sharing the same foxhole, and both are in CLOSE visual and voice contact with the two mortars. They've been sharing the same foxhole for quite a while. So, it's not a temporary break as a result of the company HQ being in transit. The company HQ radio is up and it's in contact with battalion. And yet those two mortars are still out-of-contact to every HQ/FO on the map except for their section and company HQs. The contact indicators for the mortars and the section HQ show green for every level except company. It has been me befuddled why it worked for a while after platoon HQ bought it in the first minutes of the scenario, but then it didn't after I moved the company HQ and then policed-up the dead platoon HQ. It's all academic now. I finished that scenario. Used up those mortars' HE rounds by calling in targets through the section HQ. (They still have smoke rounds). I'm just going chalk this up to a "glitch" as another poster put it. Thanks to everyone who tried to help. Edited October 21, 2023 by Myles Keogh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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