CM -- What's I'd like less of

[Chief]

Having played around with Combat Mission (in my estimation, the greatest combat simulation ever to grace a computer screen) for a scant few weeks, I am so ungrateful as to have a few game play requests. Experienced gamers, perhaps you can tell me how you handle these issues or why they are the way they are.

1. Less artillery. Damn but FOs burn through rounds quickly. If you want to drizzle harassing fire on a position, is there any way to slow these guys down? Does “Pause” work? Re-targeting (but that’s the luck of the draw, if the missions starts at the beginning of a turn? Is there any sentiment for a “Fire but don’t burn out the tubes” command? This would be a big help for laying smoke on a position.

2. Less information. Why do I get to know the quality levels of opposing troops? (“Let’s blast the Elite guys before they kill us all.”) I’d be content to know that my guys were taking more or less fire, and then figure out whether I was up against good troops, fanatics, guys lying doggo, or whatever.

3. Less infantry fire. My guys must all have blistered trigger fingers by the time the fighting’s done. I find that I regularly run squads out of ammo in the course of a 30 turn scenario, and that’s with a covered approach march to the LD or other inactive periods. Looking at other posts, I suspect that I’m doing something wrong here. Should I have guys “Hide” more? Am I nuts to try to have squads lay down a base of fire at 200-300m, because they’re really just making noise and attracting fire when engaging troops in defensive positions. My proclivity on the offense is to shoot at whatever I can see that can shoot back, as long as I’ve preserved a maneuver element. And I notice that the AI also seems to shoot until the barrels droop. What am I missing?

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Also los, Augen zu, und hinein!

[medlinke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chief:

3. Less infantry fire. My guys must all have blistered trigger fingers by the time the fighting’s done. I find that I regularly run squads out of ammo in the course of a 30 turn scenario, and that’s with a covered approach march to the LD or other inactive periods. Looking at other posts, I suspect that I’m doing something wrong here. Should I have guys “Hide” more? Am I nuts to try to have squads lay down a base of fire at 200-300m, because they’re really just making noise and attracting fire when engaging troops in defensive positions. My proclivity on the offense is to shoot at whatever I can see that can shoot back, as long as I’ve preserved a maneuver element. And I notice that the AI also seems to shoot until the barrels droop. What am I missing?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this strikes an important note. It's really a matter of personal style. I basically do the same thing, but at a lesser range. The key if you are doing that is reserves. You need them anyway for a possible breakthrough attempt, but you can also use them to rotate units who seem to shoot almost constantly. On the offense you have little choice, but to lay down fire at strange ranges because, quite simply, you need to cover your advance somehow. Another tactic is this: seperate your greens from your hardboiled eggs at the start and let the more advanced troops lay down the fire while the Greenies advance. Their fire is more effective and the chance that they will lose their much more valuable lives is lessened. Also, how many turns in are you making contact? One of the interesting things I've learned in the past month is to try to out move the computer in one way or another. This can mean either moving exclusively from cover to cover until you are ready to make that dash across a bridge/open piece of terrain, into the the town, etc. Or it can mean, completely outmaneuvering the enemy. Some of the more elegant scenarios don't allow your troops to do this without great hazard, but a lot of the stock ones do. If you can get that first shot off at a strange angle...Your ammo will be more effective. These are just a few options, the game is wide open for strategies so just experiment with different ammo usages and support. You must develop your own playing style in the game otherwise you'll not be as effective.

Keith

[M. Bates]

I agree, there needs to be far more control over fire power.

It's all very well saying this is 'micro-management' but that won't get your troops very far after they have run out of ammo at 15 turns of play.

Also, artillery should be 'staggered' by pressing 'P'. This would add 5 seconds to the time it takes for the artillery to fall. This at least is an idea which would be easy to implement.

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jshandorf: "Suck"

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[Guest aaronb]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chief:

1. Less artillery.

2. Less information.

3. Less infantry fire.What am I missing?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. maybe in CM2 we'll get 'Target', 'Wide target', and 'Interdiction' - which would spread lighter fire over a wide target area. Maybe we'll also get selectable orientation on the fire patterns.

2. don't know.

3. use 'hide' a lot, and wait until you can see the whites of their eyes. Also put your guys where they can't shoot (behind terrain features or buildings).

[Chief]

Medlinke:

When you create a reserve, do you keep back a platoon per company, or a squad per platoon. I can see the utility of keeping back a squad, as I notice that my HQs stay pretty gunned up when I keep them behind the squads. And what's the "strange angle" of fire being more effective? Have you (or others) noticed that infantry is more effective if delivered from a flank?

By the by, I do generally try to maneuver in cover and dead zones whenever I can, although do make the occasional exception if I think that I have an overwhelming firepower advantage at a particular point. I suspect that seeing all those tracers fly in is a "feel good" thing, but that I may be wasting .30 cal. items.

[David Aitken]

Chief wrote:

> Less artillery. Damn but FOs burn through rounds quickly.

Harassing fire is used during lulls in fighting, or to disrupt enemy lines of communication to the rear of the battlefield (off the CM map). Considering that in games of CM, your objective is to capture terrain or destroy enemy forces within usually 30 minutes to an hour, the kind of barrages available to you make sense. Anything slower or wider than a Wide barrage would do the enemy very little harm. Also, the volume, power and endurance of fire depends on the kind of artillery you're using – some only lasts for a salvo or two (German rockets, for example).

> Why do I get to know the quality levels of opposing troops?

This has been discussed before. The information may be removed in CM2, but it is not unrealistic to have it. It is possible to gauge the experience of enemy troops by watching their behaviour.

> I find that I regularly run squads out of ammo in the course of a 30 turn scenario

It is totally realistic for your men to run out of ammo. The best way to preserve it, is to keep your men out of sight of the enemy until you are ready to attack. If the enemy fires at your men, or if your men have a good LOS to the enemy, they will fire back. Also, do not order squads to engage targets at long range – this is what machineguns are for.

Concerning reserves, keeping squads back would not be a good idea. A platoon needs all of its squads to be effective, so a reserve should comprise full platoons.

David

New map!

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chief:

1. Less artillery. Damn but FOs burn through rounds quickly. If you want to drizzle harassing fire on a position, is there any way to slow these guys down? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chief-

My suggestion would be to try 'walking' the target point around a little (keep it close to the original point so the target line stays green). Not only does it keep your opponent guessing as to the real boundary of your fire mission, but it adds at least a 10 second delay for adjustment (more for Green FOs or big guns, I think).

Gives the poor lads a chance to get out from whatever cover they're in and take the next one standing up, too.

Don't know if this apes a 'realistic' tactic or is just pure GameFromUnda Cheese; any redlegs/cannon-cockers out there reading?

-dale

[curih]

Dalem,

I don't know about WWII, but they used to do that in WWI a lot. There would be long continuous bombardments (days at a time) before an attack. Evey once in a while they'd hold fire for a few minutes and have their troops make a lot of noise, as if they were "going over the top". The bombardment was timed to resume just after the enemy came out into the open to meet the offensive. Undestandably this only worked really well a couple of times before eveyone involved caught on.

Alex

[This message has been edited by curih (edited 12-09-2000).]

[medlinke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chief:

Medlinke:

When you create a reserve, do you keep back a platoon per company, or a squad per platoon.

And what's the "strange angle" of fire being more effective? Have you (or others) noticed that infantry is more effective if delivered from a flank?

B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To address the first question. Yeah, it's only a squad, but that's really all I've ever needed to support about 5 squads. Typically all 5 squads aren't always in a position to fire so you can rotate at the front too.

To address the second. I meant to say flanking...sorry. While there isn't any bonus per se, the AI retreats away from your troops. So, if they are getting nailed from their line of advance, and you swing around their 9, any way they go, they can get nailed really, plus, against, a human opponent it opens up the question of how many more squads are behind the squad that made contact?

[medlinke]

I have a funny true FO story from WW2.

My grandfather was a gunners mate on the CA-71 Quincy and they got info from a Scottish special forces FO in D-Day. They were assigned to fire on Pont-Du Hoc. His FO gave them the fire mission and they were pretty successful, but during the firing they lost contact with the FO. Presuming he was dead, they relied on other FOs in the area to finish the job so the rangers could advance up the cliffs.

Needless to say, the next morning at about 0300 they hear this Scottish voice saying nice job over the radio. My Grandfather bolts awake and wakes up his buddies. They listen to the FO who is whispering and they find out he is looking down on an entire Company of Germans asleep still. Their guards haven't spotted him at all. So what does this guy say, "Get permission to fire on this position." So my grandfathers Gunner gets the go ahead and tell the Scot to read off the data. The Scot, won't do it and says hang on....Silence....Silence......BOOM! My grandfather asks what the heck is going on and the FO is like, "I threw a grenade down there to wake em up so that when you guys fire on em, they can die with their pants on... Needless to say, my grandpa's gunner gets the coordinates, fires away, and they hear back from the FO that the 1st shot landed right smack in the middle of the encampment!

I related this story for one reason only. To show that FO's were very highly trusted, and if they said fire, people got on their guns and blazed away. So, I think if you know that your arty is going to be depleted in 5 turns...don't waste it!

[Vanir]

It has been suggested that an option be added in CM2 for a FO to be able to request an exact number of rounds to be fired, exept in the case of rockets, which must be fired in groups. I have no idea if this will be implemented.

I personally use the tactic voiced above of slightly changing the target point at the beginning of a round of fire which subtracts about 10-15 seconds of firing time and saves ammo.

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You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[Colin]

I just let my guys go crazy with their ammo!

I figure a .30cal bullet isn't going to do much harm to the enemy while it's lying in the dirt beside the weapon!

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And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh.

-Steve

My website!

A major source of Wild Bill scenarios!

[Thermopylae]

If your head was only up for 3 seconds max before you dropped back behind cover, you had an unnatural amount of adrenalin pumping, anf you couldn't see exactly where the enmy was, and if you could hge might drop behind cover again any second, would you be carefully squeezing off rounds to preserve ammo?

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For god's sakes how come those machineguns won't die!"-Me, whenevre I'm attacking.

[Chief]

Thanks flks,

I'll definitely try the "walk the IP around" approach to conserving ammo.

[Olle Petersson]

1. Arty intensity:

The way I handle this is by shifting the fire slightly for each turn, providing a pause in the barrage for 15-30 seconds. (Enough for suppressed units in the target zone to rise from cover and expose themselves to the next shelling...)

2. Troop quality:

There's a mod somewhere that takes care of this by simply hiding the text. Can't remember where the mod is though...

Cheers

Olle

[Radar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

I agree, there needs to be far more control over fire power.

It's all very well saying this is 'micro-management' but that won't get your troops very far after they have run out of ammo at 15 turns of play.

Also, artillery should be 'staggered' by pressing 'P'. This would add 5 seconds to the time it takes for the artillery to fall. This at least is an idea which would be easy to implement.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The size of a Arty FFE (fire for effect) mission depends on the target...mg pos, plt, Co, etc., it would be a number of battery rounds to suppress the target size...(something like that..) a new fire mission would need to be called (or adjustment)to continue firing..ROF also has a place here..dependant on the size of the gun..sustained fire wouldn't be more than one round per tube per min,(probably far less) under the best conditions...(there is a lot of work to do)..but the typical FM would have the rounds fused and standing by for rapid response..

[Terence]

My take on the ammunition issue; Its hard, in a combat situation, unless maybe you are a delta force operative, to keep track of exactly how much ammunition you have expended.

I think that when confronted by people shooting at you, your instinct is to shoot back, a lot.

Besides, if the soldiers on the board did everything their commanders wanted it might take away from the randomness which can be one of the most fun parts of the game.

An example from a very slightly related area - law enforcement:

After shootings where cops have been involved, their supervisors ask them how many times they fired, as part of the post-shooting inquiry.

Often they get the answer "I don't know," and very very often, they are told "Three or four times." But in many of these cases the cops have emptied their entire magazines, without realizing it.

[Blindicide]

Maybe I'm just a natural born coward,but more often than not,I think if there were bullets flying in my direction,my instincts would tell me to keep my head down and avoid any unwanted ventilation.