Plea for the Kitchen Sink

[Ron]

Ok, we have requests for long tasselled wheat flowing picturesquely in the Normandy countryside and uber gunners who can skip HE a minimum of 3 times before exploding it on a dime. Sure, we want soldiers who have necks like a bull, MGs that your grandmother wouldn't use, and last but not least, rubble that looks like, well, rubble.

Now I'm saying we should forget about all that. In the grand scheme of things what's really needed is the veritable Kitchen Sink, in all it's glory. Here are two well documented and researched firsthand accounts of those who were there.

From "A Soldier's Hell" by John Tallehow

'We were assembling in the woods for a major attack when all hell broke loose. We dove for cover and were holding up pretty good until the Jerries began to throw everything at us, including the Kitchen Sink. It did us in, what a terrible weapon. I was the only one to make it out from my squad, I heard later over half the company simply vanished before the attack was called off.'

From "Cuisine of the US Army, You Can Do It Too!" by Ben Nueitall

'We set up the tent in an abandoned apple orchard and received instruction on the proper care and handling of the Kitchen Sink. There had been numerous reports lately of the Germans having this new weapon. Using good old yankee ingenuity we learned it's ins and outs in one afternoon. It was quite simple actually, we wondered why no one had thought of it before.'

I have other sources as well but am not too big on typing, just wanted to generate some discussion for CM1a.

Regards,

Ron

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:

Ok, we have requests for long tasselled wheat flowing picturesquely in the Normandy countryside and uber gunners who can skip HE a minimum of 3 times before exploding it on a dime. Sure, we want soldiers who have necks like a bull, MGs that your grandmother wouldn't use, and last but not least, rubble that looks like, well, rubble.

Regards,

Ron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's some funny stuff.

Hey, why don't we simulate the infantry getting boners as they engage in battle. Or better yet, slowly morph their backsides with brown stains in their britches. Hey, that would be realistic. So why not???

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"Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!"

"Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!"

--from the film Battlefield Earth

[This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 05-08-2000).]

[Simon Fox]

LOL

Ron you are such a bitch!

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"Heaven sent and hell bent

Over the mountain tops we go

Just like all the other GI Joes

EE-AY-EE-AY adios!"

[Neutral Party]

Hey Ron

Had you not inserted 3 platoons of SS panzergrenadiers up my bottom and twisted them very painfully, I would say that you had a sense of humor.

But to paraphrase Steve - just because something occurred doesn't mean that it actually happened.

Joe

[Username]

My paraphrase..

Just because something is real is by no means proof that it isnt a hallucination too.

uhhh... I kind of get what Rons bent of humor is getting at .. but is OB&G losing anyone with that "heart-ons" remark? Maybe you need to get out of the house more OB&G..

Lewis

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts:

that would be realistic. So why not??? Because it's silly and IMPRACTICAL!

Just my take on this whole Kitchen Sink theory.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would have to disagree with that take. I have Sir Ian V. Hogg's Military Cook Ware of the 20th Century and it clearly details Kitchen Sink use (and the somewhat rare Ice Box) in the ETO. There is even good documentation on the US Kitchen sink introduced late in the war.

[Chris Jenkins]

I remember using the kitchen sink during a live-fire training exercise. The mortarmen had a special catapaut delivered to handle it. Man, when that porcelain spatters on the target, you really feel sorry for anyone who might have to face it. Chicken bones and lost wedding rings were transformed into deadly shrapnel. What with more drug dealer's houses being confiscated, I think we'll have a ready supply of these for the next war. Just think about it, old soldiers had to throw at the enemy were their two cents worth. It took volleys and volleys and days and days. We've come a long way, baby.

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Allahu Ackbar!

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hehe.. pretty funny stuff.

Sorry, but I have to correct the now multiple twistings of what I said in another thread...

Just because it exists doesn't mean it is relevant.

BTW, next thing you know Ron will be asking for the various different TYPES of kitchen sinks. We all know the Germans had heavier duty ones to handle all that sauerkraut and wurst

Steve

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We all know the Germans had heavier duty ones to handle all that sauerkraut and wurst<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

mmm...are you sure? IIRC it was heavy duty toilet bowls. Also towards the end of the war the shortage of materials meant that German Kitchen Sink factories had to reduce the round wall thickness and the use of slave labour resulted in a very high percentage of defects. Therefore the German Sinks are less effective than allied ones.

There are also some ethical questions with regard to sink usage. If the sink is preused and fired with the trap still attached it may constitute biological warfare.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

BTW, next thing you know Ron will be asking for the various different TYPES of kitchen sinks. We all know the Germans had heavier duty ones to handle all that sauerkraut and wurst

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I would not know about others, but I hereby publicly declare my surprise and deep disappointment that CM does not model the late 1944 'Königsspüle' (SdKfz1234, Ausf. Y/Schwer) with it's single-barrel hot/cold water tap (come on now, the Brits to this day need two to get the job done), new stainless steel feature and sloped run-off area, all surrounded by the 'Oak, natural' 1936-99 standard German living room camo pattern. Really, call CM realistic... And what about the V-Spüle? We all know that version two was actually more a propaganda device aimed at the destruction of house-wife morale at the homefront in the UK. Probably outside CM's scope though.

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Andreas

[lucero1148]

I am currently playing Riesburg as the Germans for the 1st time and my 1st PBEM ever . It is turn 12, I'm out of mortar ammo, no HE for the 88 and trying to stop the US troops with AP rounds. All his tanks are dead and I'm in position to encircle a pocket of about 40+ GI's on my right flank. My left flank is stonewalling his advance there too but I'm seriously low on ammo, period. I can't find any kitchen sinks in the village, I could cetainly use them if they were there. Or even a broken toilet. Am I playing an early version or is there another update to the demo no one talks about.

Duh,

Patrick

[Juju]

Hey Patrick! got some Kitchen Sinks over here in the LD village!

Hurry now y'hear, before they're all gawn!

[Fionn]

I think everyone here is missing the main point.

While it is correct to add the kitchen sink to the German arsenal we should bear in mind that only the Ausfuehrung A would have been available prior to August 1944 and it was only with the issuance of the Ausf C ( as we all know the B had problems with porcelain quality and premature detonations which ruled out use in active combat) in August 1944 that the kitchen sink was a truly viable weapons system.

So, let's not just plead for the addition of all marks of the kitchen sink but let us be sure to only plead for those which actually saw front-line service.

Personally I think that the "porta-sink Ausf D" is extremely important and that the two-man "throwing teams" which were utilised to deploy this weapons system should be modelled.

Oh, and before anyone asks... No, I don't think the toxic and biological aspects of kitchen sinks (or even "public toilet Ausf Ds") should be modelled since we're not modelling conventional gas shells either.

Also, does anyone have any info about the nahverteidisinks mounted on late-war AFVs ?

[Guest tom w]

Plea for the kitchen sink is now the funniest thread on the board..

Marginally funnier than Tanks in the Basement

which certianly had its moments.

The dry wit and sarcasm here, in 'Plea for the

kitchen sink' is near and dear ro my heart

Fionn.... Brilliant Post!

now when can the rest of us get down to business and play that Damn Gold Demo!

-tom w

"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton

[This message has been edited by tom w (edited 05-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by tom w (edited 05-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by tom w (edited 05-08-2000).]

[lucero1148]

Juju,

See what I mean, my version doesn't come with kitchen sinks or exploding toilet bowls. This makes me wonder whether CM scenarios are fair and square. Perhaps Steve can throw in a bedpan in CM2? I think I may be lacking vital material somewhere.

Juju

If you've got some extra sinks hiding along with the beer in that town of yours I'll be more than happy to take them off your hands. Why not meet me in the forest and we'll have a picnic. I planning to have a barbecue and guess what's the main course.

All best

Patrick

[Guest Germanboy]

Fionn, with your post you rip the mask of knowledge from your face and expose the ignorance behind it - everybody and (might I add) the kitchen sink knows that the only version to see service on the western front was the heavy version Ausf. Y/Schwer I described above. And that had to be serviced by a six man team who needed special kitchen duty training. These men were identified by the 'Kartoffelschaelabzeichen' (Potato Peel Badge) during their service. Allied soldiers exposed to the horror of kitchen sink attacks and covered with rotten potato skin usually shot them on the spot, quarter was neither asked nor given. A disproportionately high number of Iron Cross recipients learned their trade on the kitchen sink before switching to long distance latrine werfer batteries (known to the allies as 'Stinking Meanies').

As for the porta-sink (Ausf.D), the two-men teams should be able to run, otherwise that simply is not realistic. I observed builders running with sinks, so they should be able to do that too. But since it was only used on the Eastern Front, that can wait until CM2.

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Andreas

[Username]

Just because A sinks had B faucets doesnt mean that C dishwashing can be assumed.

[Fionn]

Tom w,

I must confess to being mystified by your amusement. If you don't think that it is important to model this CRUCIAL aspect of weaponry then I am very saddened. Next you'll be telling me that BTS shouldn't delay the game for as long as necessary in order to include the "flying ubersoldat" we discussed here several months ago. I hope this will not prove true and that you will abandon your absurd position and admit that the modelling of combatsinks and toilets is ESSENTIAL at this level of conflict. Certainly they can be abstracted at higher levels(such as the operational or strategical) but at the tactical level we must model such weapons systems faithfully if CM is to have ANY sort of respect from the wider wargaming community.

Lucero1148,

It is a common misconception that the "bedpan" was actually an offensive weapon. While I would certainly agree that sometimes noxious and offensive odours could arise from it it is relatively easy to show that a simple translation error led to a major misappreciation of this "weapon". At one stage Arnold Stuart Smithly Prober ( aka A.S.S. Prober) mistakenly translated the German term for bedpan incorrectly. As we all know the Wehrmacht referred to a "bedpan" as a "mobile waste storage unit". Unfortunately ASS Prober mistakenly translated the German word for "mobile waste storage unit" as " mobile toilet-bowl" and thus, forever, marked German hospitals as mass producers of the horrid "toilet-bowl-bomben" which rained down on Allied troops on all fronts during the last months of 1944.

New research by the Middle-Eastern historian, Professor DirtyFet Ishist in his book " Special and Kinky weapons of the Third Reich" settles this issue irrevocably. I particularly like the way Professor D.F. Ishist managed to work in the witty wordplay about "kinks" (aka bends in pipes or barrels) into this work which so concentrates on both the Krummlauf and "special pipe-bomb".

Germanboy,

You obviously have never heard of Waffen-SS ErsatzAssProbingsGruppe 101 (say it out loud) which during the invasion of Arnhem was field-testing the Ausf D kitchen sink and utilised two of them in defensive action. Obviously, since 2 of these weapons were utilised on the Western Front it is now MANDATORY that they be included or else we'll have to take Steve and Charles out and shoot them using personally-owned, non-automatic kitchen sinks (NOT assault kitchen sinks I hasten to add in case any Federal Agents are monitoring this).

[Guest Thumper]

So how many KS teams were to be found in a typical Panzergrenedier Bat.? Will there be anti KS "plunger" teams? Is the listed throw weight with or without disposal unit?

[Black Sabot]

Hey Patrick,

I don't have any kitchen sinks but i do have a truckload of frozen Chickens. If you let them thaw a bit before firing they work almost as well as a beehive round.

Let me know if you're interested. I can have a truck drop off a couple of cases to your 88s in, say 10 minutes

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

You obviously have never heard of Waffen-SS ErsatzAssProbingsGruppe 101 (say it out loud) which during the invasion of Arnhem was field-testing the Ausf D kitchen sink and utilised two of them in defensive action.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom W. zis is not funny! If you are not prepared to seriously discuss this topic, stop wasting bandwith!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fionn,

honestly I expected more from you, I have the evidence here in the undisputed work "SdKfz 1234, die Königsspüle Y/Schwer und ihre Abarten" on page 5,347, para 17, where the author concludes after interviewing SS-Schütze Arsch (No.17) of Waffen-SS ErAsPrGrp 101, who was one of the crew of the D version you laughingly assert was actually used, that they in fact did not get it to the front-line due to a lack of mules. As usual, allied soldiers confronted with German equipment assumed that the minnowy portable Dishracks they faced were insuperable kitchen sinks. Makes you wonder how they ever won the war.

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Andreas

[lucero1148]

Fionn and Germanboy,

My! I am impressed by how learned you and the other people who populate this forum are. I thought I was up on my history but I am now humbled by such lumnaries as the 2 of you so clearly show. Like lighting up a fart.

I'm quite sure you 2 are onto something though since there must be a definite correlation between KS / Porta Sink Ausf D and the Kartoffenschaelblahblah (I give up on this German spelling) bedpans and how France fell during the blitzkreig. Sacre' bleu, the French General Staff just threw in the apron when confronted with rotten potato blitzen, smelly pickled pig knuckles and sauerkraut. I know its true as I read it somewhere.

Black Sabot,

I read your thread on those frozen chickens. That's a pretty hot topic here in the Philippines (aside from kidnappings and how to promote the Philippines as a vacation spot you can't escape from), the local chicken farmers are ready to go to war against Tyson Chicken/USA. It's much to do with the dumping of frozen chicken parts vs whole chickens. I think this may be a topic for CM6 that'll be interesting for all on this fine forum, "Chicken Wars on the Frozen Fields".

Oh yeah, send your chickens soon as AP shot is useless against those GI's in the forest.

All best to all

Patrick

[Username]

lucero

1. YES it has been shown that chickens existed

2. YES it is true they were fired in the frozen state SOMETIMES.

But what really interests me is can you absolutely PROVE to ME that they were ever fired often in a DELAYED DEFROSTED DETONATION???

As previous threads have proven, the use of non-regulation pidgeons or rarely seen geese just doesnt warrant a major 'fowling' of BTS's 'game' engine....

(snicker)

Lewis

PS I will wait to hear from my chicken-hawk guy Fionn..

[This message has been edited by Username (edited 05-08-2000).]

[Fionn]

Thumper,

The disposal unit is a post-war American invention. Even today European-derived kitchen sinks generally don't have disposal units.

Germanboy,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I have the evidence here in the undisputed work "SdKfz 1234, die Königsspüle Y/Schwer und ihre Abarten" on page 5,347, para 17<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dispute the work . Furthermore it is generally accepted that Unt Arsch was speaking through his .... well I'm sure you get the idea .

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lucero1148:

the local chicken farmers are ready to go to war against Tyson Chicken/USA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy you ain't kiddin'. Tyson Chicken was supposed to come to my town to set up a chicken plant several years ago. One the day they were supposed to come, the schools let out and everybody went up to the square and lined the streets like a parade to welcome them. Well, guess what? They NEVER showed. We kept getting rumors that they were on their way from the airport and they never showed. They never had ANY intention to set up a plant here, because our "wonderful" governor wouldn't give them a tax incentive to build here.

Maybe they thought we didn't have the right Ausf version of the Kitchen Sink.

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"Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!"

"Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!"

--from the film Battlefield Earth