One bloody tough Sherman M4A1(76).

[illo]

I had elite Tiger which missed Cromwell that was heading directly against it from 12clock position. Tiger gun pointing at it for many..many seconds.

1st shot 50m miss (short)

2nd shot 20m miss (short)

Then cromwell passed my tiger from 2m range!!! It must have filled gunners sights

at 50m for sure...how can elite gunner miss from that position. Cant think why he aimed ground. You dont have to count ranges at 50 or 20m distances.

Its not about zeiss optics...you dont need any optics from 20m.

Oh and about AT mortars...I knocked out 3 Jacksons with 1 81mm mortar last scenario.

There is no way human can calculate exact distance and direction of an enemy tank, the wind speed and direction, and flight time of round and disable dispersion factor from his mortar all under 10seconds...looks like we have ultimate math geniuses as mortar crews.

[This message has been edited by illo (edited 12-05-2000).]

[Tris]

Yup. Seen it dozens of times on this BBS. People NEVER come here to complain that they got some amazingly great shot that all odds were against. Never. But if the enemy does it you instantly get comments like "Bull ****"

Not so, Steve. I posted to you a week or so ago re the German MG pillbox slit incident with my Greyhound's 37mm round rifling right on through more than one scattered-trees tile even as the M8 was on the move for the unlikely kill, and I've posted before re this same problem, from both sides, mind you, with regard to the VoT scenario--this, the mortality rate of pillboxes versus tank slit shots, sometimes from long distance, is an oft-recurring problem which I first noted in the form of a simple question a couple-three months ago, before my full version arrived. For whatever that's worth.

So I'd say "NEVER" is a bit of hyperbole.

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 12-05-2000).]

[Snake Eyes]

I've seen it both ways in the same game. On the first turn my M10 took out a Tiger I at 600+ meters. A few turns later I ran into another Tiger I and it proceeded to devastate my entire armored force. It endured multiple hits by 76 AP and 105 HEAT from front and side. Several bazooka rockets were bounced off it as well. It was even penetrated by a 105 HEAT round, which caused only one crew casualty. This Tiger destroyed two M10's, four M4's, a M8 GMC and survived the game.

One Tiger was made of glass, the other of titanium. Go figure!

------------------

It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Snake Eyes]

Sorry, double post during the BBS problems.

[This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 12-05-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

OK, an exception to my statement So I shall rephrase...

The human tendency, as shown here on this BBS time and time again, is to complain when extraordinary luck goes against them. Heck, many complaints have been from people using German tanks which have been KO'd by NORMAL situations. "My über tank is not supposed to be killed, ever!" But very, very, very few people come here to complain when their own units have scored a lucky shot. I do remember your post Tris, now that you reminded me of it, and it has got to be one of a handfull of exceptions to the truckloads of complaints.

As for missing at 20m, I'll ask Charles about this. Perhaps at very close ranges (which rarely happen in real world combat) the percentage chance of a miss is too high.

Steve

[Tris]

It seems to me the to-hit% for in-close shots is off, somehow. A couple of weeks ago I posed an AAR re this with a Sherman (which was stationary) missing a Hotchkiss (on the move in reverse at first, then it stopped and it, too, was stationary for the next shot) at 25m or whatever it was two times running. This morning, yet again in a QB versus the computer, one of my Firefly's hunted into a veritable nest of German HT's and proceeded to shoot off six or seven misses from ranges of 37m on down . . . before finally cleaning up the lot of them.

These two examples are the most obvious I can recall, and it's not as if I'm keeping score or looking for this stuff--it's kind of obvious when you play the game a lot, which I do for the reason it's a helluva game, Steve.

But like you just wrote, you haven't the opportunity to get much time in on it, as the rest of us do, so it's natural we will see anomalies which the development team misses. The to-hit% from in close strikes me as one of these anomalies.

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But like you just wrote, you haven't the opportunity to get much time in on it, as the rest of us do, so it's natural we will see anomalies which the development team misses. The to-hit% from in close strikes me as one of these anomalies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I might not have time to play CM a lot, our testers do. People like Madmatt, KwazyDog, Los, Rune, Wild Bill, etc. have put in more hours into CM than probably anybody else ever. And trust me... they find problems that never even get reported on this BBS They also test out problems that others have reported for themselves, and report back to us. So there is no shortage of informed internal testing going on.

However, it is true that this BBS represents a far larger sample of game result experience, simply by its size. However, that doesn't necessarily make what is reported here correct. Quite the contrary. Much of what is reported is either misguided or failing to take into consideration other factors. But that is no slight on anybody. Having managed a testing department at Sierra before this, I can tell you that good testers are hard to find. Fortunately, we have plenty of good testers working on CM.

Steve

[Lee]

StellarRat: I know what you mean. I was DMing an RPG gaming session once

and this player's character suffered a catastrophic injury. This was

a character he had played for a long time. And so I told him there

was an extremely advanced experimental medical procedure that could

be tried to save his character's life. But given his character's condition

and the extreme nature of the injury, the chances of success were

very slim, indeed.

So remote was the hope, that I told him he had to roll 3 20's in a

row with a 20-sider die for his character to live, a near impossibility...

When he rolled the first 20, we laughed; when he rolled the second, we

were stunned; when he did it for the third time, I almost fell over

and the place erupted in wild cheers. We simply couldn't believe it.

It's the most amazing series of rolls I have ever seen.

Sometimes, very, very strange stuff happens.

[Subvet]

One time I was playing a game of modern era micro-armor. The Soviets were bringing in reserve troops with large transport helicopters. They were flying low behind some city buildings. One guy playing the Americans asked why he couldn't pop one with his tanks main gun. Now this particular tank only had LOS for a very short time as the helo flew past an opening between two buildings. We all said there was no way the gunner could aquire the target and get a shot off that fast. The guy continued to protest that if it was a land vehicle he'd get to roll the dice, and wanted a shot at the helo. Finally the guy running the game handed him a handfull of dice and told him that if he could roll all ones that he would hit the helo. We all laughed thinking it would never happen. Of course, as you probably have already guessed, the guy proceeded to roll all ones. We were all stunned. The poor soldiers in the helo were probably equally stunned for the last few seconds their virtual lives lasted.

[Lee]

I bet the guy with the choppers wasn't real happy, hehe.

[Subvet]

Yeah the guy with the choppers wasn't too pleased. All of us playing the Americans quickly asked for our handfull of dice though!

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lea:

I had a depleted US inf HQ take out a Tiger head on at about 5m in scattered trees

Don't know how they did it, in fact I don't care, their heros!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had a single Waffen SS rifle platoon take out a pair of super pershings. i just had them run back and forth shooting at it with panzerfausts. Thank god for the pershing's slow turret

[Terence]

I once killed a Mongolian Colonel of artillery by saying his name in a sarcastic tone of voice.

Does that count?

[Guest Mikey D]

Reminds me of those 'real world' stories where an 88 shell scrapes paint off the length of a Sherman's belly armor, or snaps off an entire suspension unit but leaves the interior intact. In the real world the crew would no doubt be out and running like mad for the nearest ditch, or they'd be slamming all their smoke shells into the beast to blind him... neither of these seem to be options for the AI.

[Maximus]

Hey I had a SS squad take out a Pershing too with a catostrophic explosion at that. I even have a screenshot of it. Wish I could post it though.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

So, the urban legend that a Tiger is invincible is exactly that, and urban legend. In reality Tigers died on the battle field, or else the German Army would still be equipped with them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn... is THAT why the Bundeswehr has Leopard II's now instead of Tiger I's. Pity really, the Tigers just look so much better.

Regards

Jim R.

[Chupacabra]

Yeah, come on folks, when you run up against amazingly poor luck in a game just do like I do and bitch about it to your opponent until they wish they'd never sent the damn file

Of course, if you're playing the AI, you're SOL. In that case I strongly recommend getting drunk.

------------------

Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[weasel]

OK, just have to stick in my tale of luck (both bad & good) from last night.

Due solely to my superior skills (and no luck at all) I have outmanuvered my opponent in an armor QB (no-holds-barred unrealistic slug-fest) and have three Hellcats and a Jackson against one PzIVG. Unfortunately, my forces are scattered, and I'm so confident at this point that instead of consolidating 'em, I engage him piecemeal. The results: three front turret penetrations, one side turret penetration, two ricochets, and the bloody thing is still going. Meanwhile, it has taken out all but one Hellcat.

So I'm playing "ring around the slow-turreted German" and ping off two more ricochets before the dreaded order pause finds me just outside that cover I planned and the bloody Panzer manages to traverse around and get off one shot. Boom, dead Hellcat.

Terrible run of luck, eh? I'm weeping and reaching for the whiskey.

But then... lo and behold... a broken 'zook team, down to one man and one shell, 150 meters away, recovers, rises to it's feet and gets off one shot: rear turret penetration, dead Nazi.

His cowardly attempts to assault the VL with his crews was then easily repulsed by my one remaining infantry squad. The game may have scored it as a minor victory, but I assure you, it was major in my basement.

So luck does indeed flow both ways, though it does indeed seem rare for it to turn around like that.

OK, back to yer PENG-ing.

[Guest kking199]

I am here to sing the praises of CM and tell my GOOD LUCK story. (Just for you Steve!!)

I start an attack game as the Allies with 80% of my force on the far right side of the map, and a Inf Platoon and Motorized Platoon(2 M8, 3 HT's, +.50cal team) on the left side. It is raining. I have 2 M4A3 76's, M4 105, 2 Hellcats. After placing my units I am at first plot turn when I see a "Tiger?" identified on a road that runs from the town to my men on the right. I had kepy my 2 M4A3's hidden and thought... my Hellcats were, but one had LOS on the Tiger?, I was sure I was about to lose a 'Cat and some Inf as the area I was in was lower than where the Tiger? was and concealment was not as good as I had hoped for, I was planning a Company assault across about 150m of open ground into some forest, using smoke as cover.. but I had to wait for my smoke. Well, I get the movie back and figuring I will lose 1 'cat maybe both. Turn starts, 'Cat aquires Tiger? and about 8 seconds in fires and... HIT, Upper Turrnet Penetration, Knocked Out!! Hot Damn! That little cat forgoed the AP spotting round and fired Tungsten, he had 6 total.

Ok guys, it gets better, turns out it was not a Tiger?... but a King Tiger!! My opponent was pissed, rightly so, I would have been! If we had been unable to knock out the KT I think my plan would have fallen to pieces, as is we are proceeding nicely despite some rather accuate Arty which has wiped out one platoon and severly crippled another. At this point I have 1 'Cat immobilized by Arty all other armor is fine. We also took a Tiger out but he was toast as I had both M4A3's targeted his flank in good hull down positions and my M4 105 shooting at his arse! It they had failed it would immediatly come into both 'Cats crosshairs, based on it's current heading.

The fortunes of war ebb and flow, but the smart commader will win the day.

(Now I just have to figure out how to be a "smart" commander 90+% of the time!!)

[This message has been edited by kking199 (edited 12-08-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

The use of Tunsten is now generous.

I really like the fact that they will forego the First "spotting" round of reg AP.

I have had Hellcats up against Panther's and KTs and JagTigers and they will load and fire tungsten straight off and they can get an uncanny amount of First Shot hits that will KO these big german tanks. Its a whole new ball game with Allied TDs and Tungsten Now, I have not yet had a TD run out of tungsten yet, when it may have needed it. By the time all the tungsten is expended there has been no german armour left to target every time I've played so far.

I think tungsten works GREAT now.

-tom w