Small Arms.

[chuckdyke]

Surprised that the American Small Arms manufacturers are found wanting by the Pentagon. Swiss arms are highly accurate but expensive. Who is doing the selecting in the US?

The Army’s Next-Gen Infantry Weapons Will Be More Lethal and More Accurate (msn.com)

[LukeFF]

What does this have to do with the CM games?

[chuckdyke]

9 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

What does this have to do with the CM games?

You say the same thing about the War in the Ukraine thread? 

Edited April 22, 2022 by chuckdyke

[Holman]

5 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

What does this have to do with the CM games?

The story is that the Army is moving away from the M4/M16 to a new assault rifle based on a 6.8mm round (about halfway between today's 5.56mm and the old 7.62mm round).

Game-wise, it'll be along eventually. In real-world terms it reflects that infantry body armor calls for heavier ammo.

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Holman said:

to a new assault rifle based on a 6.8mm round

British army tried to introduce a similar round back in the fifties. .280 British - Wikipedia

[Simcoe]

3 hours ago, Holman said:

The story is that the Army is moving away from the M4/M16 to a new assault rifle based on a 6.8mm round (about halfway between today's 5.56mm and the old 7.62mm round).

Game-wise, it'll be along eventually. In real-world terms it reflects that infantry body armor calls for heavier ammo.

I'm still skeptical that the larger round is worth all the downsides. Haven't we already gone through with this when we switched from the 30-06 to 5.56? 

5.56 gives you more rounds and a flatter trajectory(debatable I know). Fire superiority is king and 5.56 let's you sling more lead.

Also, how many casualties are actually caused by small arms in a modern conflict? Seems like that money could be better spent on better artillery, logistics, electronics.

[chuckdyke]

23 minutes ago, Simcoe said:

5.56 gives you more rounds and a flatter trajectory(debatable I know). Fire superiority is king and 5.56 let's you sling more lead.

Done my sums and at 300 meters the 5.56mm is like 9 mm at 25 meters for energy. Even without body armor the advantage of a high velocity round is gone. Body armor it seems changes the coal posts. You can load the 7.62 NATO (.308 Win) with an 80-grain bullet going 3000ft/second which is nice to shoot with a bolt rifle. The mistake in my view was to load the 7.62 mm NATO to .30-06 Springfield specifications. With a red-dot sight the infantry is effective to 500 meters

 

23 minutes ago, Simcoe said:

Also, how many casualties are actually caused by small arms in a modern conflict?

Let me see something like a UAV Hornet could be launched from a grenade launcher underneath an assault rifle. Tactics will go back to the drawing board small teams of six highly skilled infantry can be devastating in the future. The .270 or 6.8mm for self-defense at longer ranges makes sense no need to spray and pray. UAVs will undergo a revolution like a hand thrown AT-Grenade or anti-personnel but with a range of 5km. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by chuckdyke

[Simcoe]

11 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Done my sums and at 300 meters the 5.56mm is like 9 mm at 25 meters for energy. Even without body armor the advantage of a high velocity round is gone. Body armor it seems changes the coal posts. You can load the 7.62 NATO (.308 Win) with an 80-grain bullet going 3000ft/second which is nice to shoot with a bolt rifle. The mistake in my view was to load the 7.62 mm NATO to .30-06 Springfield specifications. With a red-dot sight the infantry is effective to 500 meters

 

Let me see something like a UAV Hornet could be launched from a grenade launcher underneath an assault rifle. Tactics will go back to the drawing board small teams of six highly skilled infantry can be devastating in the future. The .270 or 6.8mm for self-defense at longer ranges makes sense no need to spray and pray. UAVs will undergo a revolution like a hand thrown AT-Grenade or anti-personnel but with a range of 5km. 

I’m not saying the bigger bullet won’t perform better at longer range, it most definitely will. 
 

I’m saying, how often are infantry expected to destroy a target with small arms at 500 meters? Why not call in mortars, artillery, UAV guided bomb, grenade launchers. 
 

At the ranges that infantry will most like fight at (sub 200-300) a 5.56 will perform just fine while being a lighter round.

Seems like money would be better spent elsewhere.

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, Simcoe said:

At the ranges that infantry will most like fight at (sub 200-300) a 5.56 will perform just fine while being a lighter round.

Presumably the effect of body armor must be changing the equation since having small arms accuracy and fire superiority up to 200m and artillery etc for 200m+ made a lot of sense.  

[chuckdyke]

7 hours ago, Simcoe said:

At the ranges that infantry will most like fight at (sub 200-300) a 5.56 will perform just fine while being a lighter round.

Body armor seems to be the game changer. You lose the next war by using the last war's tactics. I think small arms will be used less often because nano technology is knocking on the door. 

[ALBY]

People have been calling for the replacement of 5.56 since Jeff Cooper began slamming them as poodle shooters back in the day. 
 

however, you now see AR pattern 5.56 guns considered to be sport utility guns. It is probably the most popular rifle caliber out there these days. 
 

I have been out of the game for a wee bit, but I shot 3 gun competitively for many years. Shooting 5.56 is not even interesting until you get out past 300 yards. The guns are basically lasers for those with basic training. AK’s ?  Good luck hitting anything at 300 with your average AK. 
 

so, considering ammo compatibility within NATO and the adaptability of the AR platform, 5.56 will be like the B52. It will be here long after we are gone !

[chuckdyke]

58 minutes ago, ALBY said:

Shooting 5.56 is not even interesting until you get out past 300 yards.

Get some reloading books and do your sums. I did and at 300 meters it performs like a 9mm at 25 meters. Not pleasant but body armor will stop it. It looks like the special forces boys demand something a little more powerful. The 5.56mm still has some way to go for the regulars. 

[ALBY]

Do the sums?  Yes chuck I have.
 

I have a Dillon 650 and I load enough .223 and 9mm for me and my 2 boys to shoot 3gun.  What would you like to know ?  

 

My 75 gr BTHP would kill Bigfoot.  I don’t play on the two way range but I agree Spec ops guys will always want always want something new. But trust me when I say that we will be shooting 5.56 for many years to come. 
 

you don’t want to get shot with a .223 at 300 yards. Next order of business is to bleed to death. 
 

the big question is green tip penetrator or something different. Us is kitted out for an enemy with body armor. The issue with the poodle shooter was always the green tip m855 AP, which will zip right thru AR500  steel at close range and will also zip right thru afghans at 300 yards. Like getting stabbed with knitting needle. Now if they let us use Varmit rounds, nobody would be complaining about lethality. But I believe it’s got to be ball ammo under the Geneva convention. So xm193 it is. 
 

again. The operators will always be getting something new and better. 

[ALBY]

My range cards for 30.06 and 5.56

[chuckdyke]

13 minutes ago, ALBY said:

The operators will always be getting something new and better. 

I remember the days when Korea veterans swore by the Lee Enfield .303. Reason it always worked. The biggest benefit of the .223 is pleasant for recruits who never fired a gun. Reason I rate the 9mm higher than the .45 ACP. Even jeff Coopers flawed energy formula projectile multiplied by velocity in Ft/Sec. (Kinetic Energy doesn't work that way). But it was the formula for a worthwhile sport. The point I am making a hit in the lung heart area scored a five, two AA qualified shooters can't afford misses outside the five ring. Wish you luck with your hobbies but your Uncle Sam seems to have different ideas now. Snipers in the game use the .308 Winchester magnum and the Marines the M4 in 5.56 NATO. Marines in the game have body armour and it seems to be reasonably effective. Range of engagement with modern optics is now 500 yards I tend to agree you need a little more thumb than the 5.56 NATO. But I am only a pensioner and enjoy this game. 

[ALBY]

Sorry to bark at you.    I can’t believe we just had a caliber war. What is this , 1990?!
 

im not disagreeing that a bigger round with more ass wouldn’t be ‘better’.  But the reality is they we are wedded to 5.56 for many reasons, most of which are not performance related. And people get  carried away with ballistics and caliber wars.  You need SAPI plates to stop a 5.56 and they are expensive and I’m not sure all of Ivan’s guys get them. 
 

we are lucky because our trained soldiers can hit at 300 or 500 yards but ivan can’t hit **** with his 5.45 at that range.  US small arms are way better.   

[ALBY]

.308 has been our heavy round for years. It’s a ballistic twin for 30-06.  Lots of rem 700 in .308 in the us armed forces.

our snipers really like .300 win mag, which is an elk round but also works for tangos.  The big Barrett guns in .50 and .338 are really heavy and basically crew served  those are more anti material.  

 

 

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, ALBY said:

US small arms are way better.  

Just bumped into an article about this rifle and show the Wiki Article about it. Made in Switzerland. Will be made under license in the US I suppose. 

XM5 - Wikipedia

[ALBY]

If your point is that it’s Swiss, ok, granted. The fit and finish on those guns will be awesome.
 

but US and NATO will issue so I consider it a US weapon. 
 

we saw this before with the SCAR, the XM25, PS90… list goes on.
 

but it will not dethrone AR15 and 5.56 anytime soon  

 

[chuckdyke]

On 6/22/2022 at 7:09 PM, ALBY said:

but it will not dethrone AR15 and 5.56 anytime soon

According to this guy the M4 is an assault rifle this new rifle is a battle rifle. But for an urban environment the M4 is a hard act to follow. 

 

[ALBY]

He has a fair point about body armor.