Question about Soviet Rifle Company OOB.

[Chibot Mk IX]

 

Hi all. As I remember, one of the biggest change in FR is to correct the Sov’s Inf company’s OOB. Change the 4^th platoon into a SMG heavy Assault Platoon, while the 1~3 platoon kept as regular Platoon, SMG in each squad reduced to two. And I remember some of the member here mentioned that due to heavy loss each squad could have only 6-7 person, then at the end of 1944 the unofficial 6 men squad become official too.   I am reading a website that records different counties infantry squad structural. https://www.battleorder.org/ussr-rifle-co-1944

 

Here is some thought on this topic:

1, By 1944, platoons would be decreased to 4 sections of 6 men to deal with combat losses and allow for a greater number of deployable units.

Interesting here. Soviets would rather keep the number of squad on the battle field than increase headcount on the squad. Does that indicate Soviets would use their infantry squad in a way similar to western counties use their fire team? 

 2, Two Light Squads (1 DP each) and 2 Heavy Squads (2 DP each) were authorized on paper. 

That’s same as the 1942 OOB. But if a squad has only 6 men, will they still have a heavy squads? To regular rifle platoon, I can understand it is inconvenience but possible. They are function as a firebase when the Assault platoons maneuvers and assault. But from description the Assault plt also have heavy squads. That is hard to image. How you can running through field quickly when you 2 of your 6 members carry cumbersome DP? And another two assistance gunner will have to keep pace with the gunner?

 

             3, it’s hard to image how a Soviet Company CO should command his company effectively. There seems a lot of burden on his shoulder.  The fire and maneuver elements split at Platoon level, so that means the Company CO has to carefully control the Assault Plt, constantly check where his three platoons are,  make a decision on when and where to commit the Assault Plt. At the same time he has one HMG , one light mortar and two marksman at his back. On theory these support team should stay at least 200-300m behind the infantry line. But the poor company Co don’t have radio. So he has to use other method to communicate with these fire support teams. That’s a lot of works on the battlefield!  Unless the HMG and light mortar will advance together with Infantry Platoons?   

[DMS]

22 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

Hi all. As I remember, one of the biggest change in FR is to correct the Sov’s Inf company’s OOB. Change the 4^th platoon into a SMG heavy Assault Platoon, while the 1~3 platoon kept as regular Platoon, SMG in each squad reduced to two.

3-rd platoon became SMG platoon (but with MGs and snipers), 1-2 were rifle platoons. In rifle company were 3 platoons.

27 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

That’s same as the 1942 OOB. But if a squad has only 6 men, will they still have a heavy squads?

I doubt that "heavy squads" with 2 MGs were really widely used. With exception to summer 43 near Kursk, where Guard armies were well prepared to defence and really had many MGs (>400 for division).

In the end of war platoons could have only 2-3 MGs. (With few magazines, by the way. With 1-2 47 round magazines for each DP in some "tired" divisions) So "heavy" squad was squad with 1 MG, not with 2 MGs.  

31 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

But the poor company Co don’t have radio.

And few messengers, unlike German Company CO. So company usually acted as 1 unit, having all 3 platoons in 1 formation. And platoons didn't have their own transport, unlike German platoons. 

35 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

The fire and maneuver elements split at Platoon level

Soviet doctrine gave more focus to maneuver than to fire. Fire elements were MG and mortar companies at battalion level, HMG at company level. (50mm mortars were mainly dropped by 44-45) MGs usually had few mags and were not expected to perform long firefight. Company had to get as close as possible after hits of own artillery, in formation with other companies.

Urban warfare doctrine was different, based around company level assault groups.

[akd]

The 43 battalion orgs remain as "paper orgs" with 4 squads per platoon, 2 of these "heavy" squads with 2 LMGs.  The 44 org has been reduced to 3x 7-man squads with 1x LMG per squad.  One SMG platoon and two rifle platoons per company in both orgs.  The 44 org should be your go to org for 1944-45.

The Battleorders site is incorrect about the Guards rifle units being identical to regular rifle units.  At least on paper, they were allocated additional support assets: small company HMG "platoon" with 2x HMGs instead of a single HMG team, as well as more snipers and AT rifles.

Please note that these changes will only appear in new content.  Older scenarios have previous orgs baked in to prevent TO&E changes breaking scenarios.

Edited April 9, 2021 by akd

[Chibot Mk IX]

Thank you for correction.  I must toke too much vodka and thought there are four platoons in a company.  : ) 

5 hours ago, DMS said:

Soviet doctrine gave more focus to maneuver than to fire. Fire elements were MG and mortar companies at battalion level, HMG at company level. (50mm mortars were mainly dropped by 44-45) MGs usually had few mags and were not expected to perform long firefight. Company had to get as close as possible after hits of own artillery, in formation with other companies.

Thank you for the insight. I didn't think about that.   I thought the rifle platoons function as fire elements but then puzzled by the very limited DP pan magazines. 

Now I remember someone told me, when you noticed a soviet army units with unique organization structure , don't think that unit is going to preform a special task , but think that is an amplifier.   So I guess the rifle Co. will be a shock troops,   the Assault Plt. is an amplifier of the volume of shock.   Then the HMG section in the Company will advance together with Company HQ, lay down suppressive fire under the Company Co.'s command ?  That will make command & Control much more easier. 

5 hours ago, DMS said:

In the end of war platoons could have only 2-3 MGs. (With few magazines, by the way. With 1-2 47 round magazines for each DP in some "tired" divisions) So "heavy" squad was squad with 1 MG, not with 2 MGs.

 

4 hours ago, akd said:

The 44 org has been reduced to 3x 7-man squads with 1x LMG per squad

That makes more sense, I can't image how a 6men team can handle two LMGs.  thanks! 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Chibot Mk IX

[akd]

Quote

Chief of Staff of the 3rd Guards Army

To your № 07060/sh of June 20, 1943 

Reporting, tactical exercises in the brigade and four-day [conference] of commanders of rifle companies, held from 25.6 to 29.6.43 allow to make the following conclusion on the use of SMG platoons of rifle companies:
1.In offensive SMG platoons can be applied:
a/When attacking a terrain devoid of hidden approaches in [in the firing line order] of rifle company, attacking enemy firing points together with rifle platoons on the direction of the main strike.
b/On cross country, SMG platoon was used to penetrate flank of firing points on the direction of the main strike. To make an attack of firing points together with rifle platoons. In the case of a counterattacks of enemy your fire upsets the battle orders of the counterattacking enemy, providing action of rifle platoons. Besides, SMG platoon must be used for destruction or blocking of revived firing points during the fight in depth of enemy defense before the approach of the battalion commander reserve.
2.In offensive of company on the open flank of battalion, SMG platoon nessesary to use on the open flank.
3.When detecting joints in enemy defense commander of company must immediately send SMG platoon for action in the rear of the defender. SMG platoon with their energetic actions must provide action of rifle platoons and prevent a counterattack from the depths.
4.When attacking a small settlement SMG platoon nessesary be used to capture individual outstanding buildings and outskirts, giving the opportunity rifle platoons to cling to the outskirts. Further commander of platoon must, using the gardens, vegetable gardens, immediately enter the opposite outskirts, sometimes small groups giving the appearance of the encirclement, not allowing reinforcements approach to blocked strong point.
In settlement divided by the river, SMG platoon after capture the outskirts must immediately advance to the [bank], capture the bridge and provide a company crossing to the opposite [bank]. In large town SMG platoon must be used to capture outstanding buildings and communication nodes, available in direction of the offensive company.
5.When out of battle SMG platoon must cover leaving the battlefield of the rifle platoons.
6.On defense SMG platoon must be used:
a/On those directions where possible accumulation of enemy infantry.
b/In case of an enemy breakthrough must be used to eliminate broken groups.
c/For securing the joints and flanks.
7.In the offensive at night SMG platoon, acting silently, must by the time of the attack the front edge by rifle platoons, infiltrate the rear of the defending enemy and to disorganize the resistance by [it’s] actions.
8.In all types of combat Commander of Company must assign the SMG platoon the task, to destroy counterattacking enemy by fire or in extreme cases to raise the counterattack of rifle platoons.

CHIEF OF STAFF OF 5 GRD.SMRBDE 

GRD.LIEUTENANT COLONEL \ BEKESH \

DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR OPERATIONAL WORK OF 5 GRD.SMRBDE

GRD.MAJOR \ SEMINSKIY \

1.7.43 № 099 

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=134908669

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=237999

[DMS]

On 4/10/2021 at 1:32 AM, Chibot Mk IX said:

   Then the HMG section in the Company will advance together with Company HQ, lay down suppressive fire under the Company Co.'s command ?  That will make command & Control much more easier. 

Yes, I think so. HMG was only section with large ammo load, having own transport, having ability to sustain continuous fire for many minutes. But there was a problem, company formation often was tight and there were no large gaps between squads. So, it was a problem, where to place HMG so it could fire safely for own troops. In CM friendly fire is not modelled, it's good for players, or managing infantry formation in attack would be a nightmare.

[Coop]

I just fired up a quick battle to compare the Rifle Battalion 43 to the 44 and the same fix for the 43!

The manning of the squads was corrected to the lower strength for the 44 pattern and the 3rd rifle platoon was made SMG - all good.

BUT now the rifle companies in the Rifle Battalion 43 also have SMG platoon + 2 rifle platoons in lieu of 3 rifle platoons... 

[akd]

2 hours ago, Coop said:

BUT now the rifle companies in the Rifle Battalion 43 also have SMG platoon + 2 rifle platoons in lieu of 3 rifle platoons... 

Conversion of one platoon to SMG platoon was ordered in 1943 for all rifle and motor rifle formations, not only "reduced" formations (which the 44 org represents).  The full strength (on paper) org for 1944 would be the 1942 org + 1943 SMG platoon conversion that was official starting in mid-43 (thus "43" org). 

Unreduced rifle company as of mid-43.  SMG platoon is not broken out, but is reflected in the total PPSh (ППШ):

Example of reduction scheme (there were many):

In game 44 formation is further reduced by elimination of light mortars, which was common in 1944, but retains HMG section.

See here for details:

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=2165760#p2165760

Edited April 24, 2021 by akd

[Coop]

Thanks for the info; I guess I was out to lunch then! Good to know that it is right after all.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Coop

[Chibot Mk IX]

Just curious on the logistic side how the Soviets deal with PPSh-41 and PPS-43's ammunition? Their box magazines are not interchangeable.  In CM these two are mixed at squad level, must be a nightmare when coming to the logistic side.

 

 

[Anthony P.]

I believe that the typical thing logistics side is that you only issue loose rounds/stripper clips of them for the recipients to refill the magazines they were issued alongside the firearm with.