FO vs FIST vs Fire Control Teams

[Lethaface]

 

11 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Fighter Bombers: Various units have LOS with various targets, see which units have Laser Pointers eg snipers, among others. The FO-has data with which he can determine the area of operations for the fighter bombers. He doesn't need a LOS himself you will see the fighter bombers will take out the targets spotted by others. This tactic worked with 'UK Armoured Assault. The water tower is a dilemma it is an excellent position for the Syrians to place an FO it makes also an excellent reference point for your FO to plot Area of Operations for your air assets. 

Only a short reply while taking a quick work break:

I'm quite sure there is NO direct communication between the aircraft/helo and troops with PDA's. However if troops are in C2 they will relay their spotting information through the C2 chain. If the Spotter calling in the airstrike is also in the C2 chain, he will use that information in his communication with the aricraft (and PDA's help relaying info through the chain). 
IIRC having a spotter with LOS to the targets also helps making sure they don't hit the same target (which is already KO'ed) with plenty of more bombs/missiles: if the spotter directing the aircraft sees the target is KO, they usually don't go for it again. If the target is out of LOS of the spotter, I've seen them hit the same target again and again. 

On another note, helicopers and fixed wing aircraft can also  spot for themselves. IIRC helicopters are better in this regard compared to aircraft. But both will seek out targets for themselves in the 'target area' (and just outside, so be careful).

The manual should have some more information about the subject.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Lethaface

[chuckdyke]

I found when troopers spot an object and are equipped with laser pointers the aircraft called by the forward TAC controllers who don't have LOS themselves will take out the enemy reliably. It is like Vietnam in this regard you called out airpower and direct napalm or other ordnance. FO rarely had LOS on the enemy, he only got reference by radio, now 50 years later I suppose PDA's etc. are far more efficient. A Harrier Fighter Bomber overshoots the target in a matter of seconds. I don't have experience with PDA's but I imagine the military has its own network. The troopers can key in references on the network in seconds. It appears to work like this in the game. 

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I found when troopers spot an object and are equipped with laser pointers

In the game, which troops (other than FO's) have laser pointers?  (You mean the actual cheap off the shelf pointers, or the sophisticated ones that FO's and some snipers have?)  

[Lethaface]

The laser designators surely work, but IMO are only used for the Air strike if the unit that called in the airstrike has the laser designator. IIRC the type of ordnance and things like weather conditions decide the influence / effectiveness of using the laser designator vs not having one.

Many of the weapons that are carried by aircraft don't need a laser designator in order to be deadly accurate, because they have other types of guidance (radar/optical/etc etc).

One instance where the laser designator is required by the spotter ordering the strike is for UKR/RUS precision munitions in CMBS (both for the artillery/mortar precision rounds), as those rounds are guided using laser designation.

USA precision rounds are GPS based so don't require the laser, although having a laser designator may improve accuracy of the strike as the spotter will be able to gauge the range more precisely (not fully sure about this last bit).

  

Edited December 8, 2020 by Lethaface

[chuckdyke]

I found when troopers spot an object and are equipped with laser pointers the aircraft called by the forward TAC controllers who don't have LOS themselves will take out the enemy reliably. It is like Vietnam in this regard you called out airpower and direct napalm or other ordnance. FO rarely had LOS on the enemy, he only got reference by radio, now 50 years later I suppose PDA's etc. are far more efficient. A Harrier Fighter Bomber overshoots the target in a matter of seconds. I don't have experience with PDA's but I imagine the military has its own network. The troopers can key in references on the network in seconds. It appears to work like this in the game. 

[chuckdyke]

In the game UK Armoured Assault the observer of D Company 4th Scots, Observer of the Sidi Rezegh Bat Artillery (Pardon my spelling) and the 2 D company snipers have the sophisticated Laser Pointers. I would imagine that it makes sense that with their PDA's they connect to the software of the Harrier fighter bombers. The game results suggest this, but the manual doesn't explain it fully. The result of Three dug in T55's brewed up in 2 minutes suggest that the laser pointers played a roll. I use DOPE Data Of Personal Equipment. It is worthwhile that the result of an airstrike can be observed. The D Company Observer spotted one T55 the Sniper who took the position of the scout the other 2. DOPE is what a sniper does when he updates his bible in real life. Against the AI I never played Syrian I imagine as defender is the way to go. It is not a force to attack a technologically superior enemy. I run out of time with the UK Armoured Assault. That makes it a loss. 

[Combatintman]

14 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I found when troopers spot an object and are equipped with laser pointers the aircraft called by the forward TAC controllers who don't have LOS themselves will take out the enemy reliably. It is like Vietnam in this regard you called out airpower and direct napalm or other ordnance. FO rarely had LOS on the enemy, he only got reference by radio, now 50 years later I suppose PDA's etc. are far more efficient. A Harrier Fighter Bomber overshoots the target in a matter of seconds. I don't have experience with PDA's but I imagine the military has its own network. The troopers can key in references on the network in seconds. It appears to work like this in the game. 

If it is a ground controlled strike in the CMSF timeframe - there will always be chit chat between the ground C/S and the attacking airframe so the PDA piece really only comes into play in terms of general situational awareness in relation to airstrikes.  Although I have no evidence to this effect, I'm pretty sure that Blue Force tracker doesn't plug directly into a pilot's/WSO's cockpit display for fast air although the capability might exist for attack helicopters.  Nonetheless, radio chit chat is always going to happen so that the ground C/S can clearly state where they are, where other own troops are, where and what the target is, the desired effect on the target and most likely the weapon to be employed on the target (if one is to be used of course - it might just be a show of force).  The aircrew will then step through all of these things until both are satisfied that the airframe is going to drop on the correct target and discuss other hazards be they tactical, environmental or whatever and agree on the direction of attack.

[chuckdyke]

Well, it worked you don't need direct LOS between the spotter and the target if a ground unit with the communication has LOS. I just run out of time so it is a tactical victory. It is like my phone at home and the internet. The manual needs to be updated because the C2 has become the C4. The company spotter could draw the area for the Harriers the Snipers had LOS but didn't plot anything. The Laser and the PDA is best seen as a weapon the algorithm of the computer will take care of it. I don't think the same rules applies as it does with radios. Kind regards I am surprised the computer gave me a Victory at all. 

[Erwin]

Thanks for testing this, Chuck.

[Combatintman]

9 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Well, it worked you don't need direct LOS between the spotter and the target if a ground unit with the communication has LOS. I just run out of time so it is a tactical victory. It is like my phone at home and the internet. The manual needs to be updated because the C2 has become the C4. The company spotter could draw the area for the Harriers the Snipers had LOS but didn't plot anything. The Laser and the PDA is best seen as a weapon the algorithm of the computer will take care of it. I don't think the same rules applies as it does with radios. Kind regards I am surprised the computer gave me a Victory at all. 

This still does not disprove the observation that aircrew may have spotted and engaged their own targets though.

[chuckdyke]

The area of operations is in Combat Mission typically 2km by 2km which is crossed in a matter of seconds. They were static targets and therefore camouflaged. (It takes the boots on the ground several turns to spot it after they had pre operations intelligence. A visual observation is unlikely, I have strong reasons to believe the PDA's of troops on the ground is integrated. I include the Cockpit of an Apache Gunship I imagine the Harrier has similar equipment. 

[chuckdyke]

The Army Brings the Cloud to the Battlefield (https_fedtechmagazine.com)

[Combatintman]

8 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

The area of operations is in Combat Mission typically 2km by 2km which is crossed in a matter of seconds. They were static targets and therefore camouflaged. (It takes the boots on the ground several turns to spot it after they had pre operations intelligence. A visual observation is unlikely, I have strong reasons to believe the PDA's of troops on the ground is integrated. I include the Cockpit of an Apache Gunship I imagine the Harrier has similar equipment. 

The picture proves nothing unless you're going to explain what the MFDs in the image are and show a Harrier cockpit.  The area represented by the map is also irrelevant as there is definitely an added area for aircraft outwith the map boundaries if you take a look at some ground to air engagements.  The targets were dug in T-55s which can be fairly easily acquired by any infra-red sensor such as a FLIR pod or the target acquisition systems on an AH-64.

[chuckdyke]

Just agree to disagree I just contributed a method which seems to work in a few games. The sniper's spotting data goes to the company commander and the contact is displayed in time as a sound contact. The company commander liaises with the TAC team assigned for this operation who calls in the airstrike and paint the area for the aircraft to operate. As the sniper maintains his visual at least he confirms the destruction of the target. At least his Laser and PDA makes the communication far more efficient than radio alone. Otherwise, there is no point to be equipped with it. I didn't see a need for a TAC team to give their position away unless necessary.  If you know the location of more than 1 vehicle an area is more efficient. Snipers and Javelin teams have better optics than ordinary scouts. Kind regards. 

[Lethaface]

On 12/10/2020 at 10:06 AM, chuckdyke said:

Well, it worked you don't need direct LOS between the spotter and the target if a ground unit with the communication has LOS. I just run out of time so it is a tactical victory. It is like my phone at home and the internet. The manual needs to be updated because the C2 has become the C4. The company spotter could draw the area for the Harriers the Snipers had LOS but didn't plot anything. The Laser and the PDA is best seen as a weapon the algorithm of the computer will take care of it. I don't think the same rules applies as it does with radios. Kind regards I am surprised the computer gave me a Victory at all. 

I think that you can also call in Helicopters which will successfully engage targets out of LOS, by using just an FO / air controller and no other troops on the map, so agree with @Combatintman that your observation doesn't substantiate your claims 100%. 

[Lethaface]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

Just agree to disagree I just contributed a method which seems to work in a few games. The sniper's spotting data goes to the company commander and the contact is displayed in time as a sound contact. The company commander liaises with the TAC team assigned for this operation who calls in the airstrike and paint the area for the aircraft to operate. As the sniper maintains his visual at least he confirms the destruction of the target. At least his Laser and PDA makes the communication far more efficient than radio alone. Otherwise, there is no point to be equipped with it. I didn't see a need for a TAC team to give their position away unless necessary.  If you know the location of more than 1 vehicle an area is more efficient. Snipers and Javelin teams have better optics than ordinary scouts. Kind regards. 

I just tested and confirmed that with only an air controller (and a hq team next to it, out of LOS of enemies) you can call in helo / fixed wing strikes and they can detect and take out targets for themselves. You can even target helicopter strikes without LOS to the area, for fixed wing you need LOS to the area where you want to call in the strike but you don't need any contacts in LOS whatsoever. 

What is, imo, true is that contacts in C2 which are spotted by others and, through c2 info sharing, shared with the air controller calling the airstrike 'helps'. So it's not 'the PDA's' directly talking to the airframes, however PDA's (although it's an abstracted icon for various sort of devices) help the info sharing and during the chat with the aircrew the air controller can use that info to direct the airstrikes onto the contacts he knows about. The more accurate the info, the better. 

Infantry targets etc are harder to detect purely by the aircrews (although helicopters are better at this than fixed wing), so having your troops in c2 (so green lights with their HQ and same thing for the air controller) looking out for the enemy does certainly improve effectiveness of airstrikes.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Lethaface

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

Snipers and Javelin teams have better optics than ordinary scouts

Be aware that ordinary scouts (split from a squad) can spot better than HQ's and FO's in the CM2 game.  The explanation was that one of the scout men may be equipped with a thermal imager on a rifle - and this gives them similar spotting capabilities as a Javelin team - and much better than an FO, HQ or sniper (unless presumably one of them has a rifle-mounted thermal imager).