Aacooper Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Did any infantry in WW2 use body armor in WW2 (besides the helmet)? I think every personal account book of WW2 has the "bullet-stopped-by-the-bible" story happening to some person in their platoon. However, I believe the Korean War saw the re-emergence of body armor. Does anyone know how effective modern US body armor is? For example, in Desert Storm or Somalia, how many casualties did the Kevlar helmet / vest combo prevent? Are there any statistics about Vietnam? [This message has been edited by Aacooper (edited 01-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Well, I think by the end of the war the British/Canadians had some sort of jacket/vest. I have seen many pictures of these vests, I don't know of their purpose though. It could be a rudamentary FlaK jacket, nothing really to stop a bullet, but, could do something against bomb/grenade/other fragments flying around. I know that during the Vietnam war, the FlaK jacket wasn't looked upon too keenly. The climate caused the individual to overheat with the damn thing on, plus, it couldn't stop much. I really doubt that there was as much chance to prove the modern day vests as there was during previous wars. Not too many American soldiers died in the war, due mostly to the fact of overwealming superiority in firepower. I personally don't think that there is a jacket, let alone a helmet that could withstand a high calibre shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I personally don't think that there is a jacket, let alone a helmet that could withstand a high calibre shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The current flak jacket won't stop bullets but I owe the continued existence of my left arm to the jacket's ability to stop big hunks of 122mm . The kevlar "Fritz pot", however, will stop bullets. It will even stop a 12.7 at long range. Remember them showing one off on TV after Grenada, when they were first used?. The wearer got a concussion but the helmet kept the 12.7 out. -Bullethead [This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 01-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zigster Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 The vests worn by Canadians were a leather or inside-out sheepskin jerkin, strictly for warmth without impeding arm movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 A book called 'The Guns of Normandy' by George Blackburn(?) describes briefly the use of a body armour vest worn by Canadian troops. I don't have the book handy but I recall the author saying most troops, finding the vest cumbersome, dropped them within a few weeks after the landing. There is also an interesting first hand account of a FO wearing the armour who is sprayed across the chest with fire and only suffers deep bruises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The kevlar "Fritz pot", however, will stop bullets. It will even stop a 12.7 at long range. Remember them showing one off on TV after Grenada, when they were first used?. The wearer got a concussion but the helmet kept the 12.7 out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like a freak occurance to me. I cracked my "fritz pot" pounding a tent stake in... something I could do with the old steel pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zigster Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 I'm looking through the few photos I can find of Canadians in Normandy and none of them are wearing any sort of vest. Doesn't mean they weren't there, though. The ones I'm thinking of were introduced by the 1st Division (The D-Day Dodgers) who brought the idea from the wet and cold of sunny Italy. ------------------ Der Zig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 >>>>>>>>> Sounds like a freak occurance to me. I cracked my "fritz pot" pounding a tent stake in... something I could do with the old steel pot. <<<<<<<<< Yeah, and you could cook in the old steel pots, too But the fritz will stop bullets. It DOES crack and shred and become useless in the process, but it keeps them out. -Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 The Brits tried out some heavy body armor. I have an article with pics about it somewhere. But, as you might expect, the steel plates were too bulky and heavy to be of practical use. As for the fritz helmet cracking, I am not surprised. A long time ago I got some inside poop on the helmets available out on the market. If the layering of the kevlar fabric during manufactoring has to be done in JUST the right way or it becomes brittle and won't even stop a sub sonic round at medium range. This guy even told me which sub contractors were making crappy helmets. So as far as I know a lot of our guys are walking around with subpar protection Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Naw, they probably sold all the crappy ones second hand to us Steve. We Australians are world famous for buying things that sound great but end up being crap. Hmmm, anybody want a Collins Class sub real cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 No no goanna, youve got it all wrong. You see, they make enough sound to account for five submarines each. That way the bad guys think they are facing a whole wolfpack instead of one vessel and take off before we have time to get within range On the plus side, Ive been reading over the past couple of years that we are looking at purchasing the Typhoon (formerly EF 2000). They appear to be a nice little fighter from what Ive read. I could be wrong though Anyways, where did I put that rum'n'coke..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 NEVER forget that your weapons are made by the lowest bidder. Capitalism rules eh? I hear they're coming out with a new type of vest which is good against knives and other stabbing implements too (mainly heard about it due to it being wanted for police in England where being stabbed to death is a real concern but being shot by criminals is much less common). Any info on this? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Heh, you guys in Australia are waaay ahead of us in Canada. Most of our sub fleet is in the West Edmonton Mall. Here is a link to one of our marvels of national defense. http://www.westedmall.com/attractions/html/deepsea.htm Craig (wishing he lived down under) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Did any infantry in WW2 use body armor in WW2 (besides the helmet)? The Red Army experimented with portable metal shields during the Winter War. The thing was basically a sheet of metal that was put on skis and that had a hole for rifle or LMG in it. The design was not too successful. The shield did stop rifle bullets that were fired from front, but they presented almost ideal target for anti-tank rifles which penetrated them easily. It was also quickly noticed that the user of the shield often sunk deeper in the snow than the shield and you could kill him by aiming at the snow in front of the shield. In any case, as the attacker came close to Finnish lines, his flanks were exposed and it is quite difficult hide your position when you are in open with a 50cm high metal thing in front of you. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Deych Posted January 14, 2000 Share Posted January 14, 2000 Russian engineering/assault troops did have a sort of a scale plate jacket issued to them, at least occasionally. I don't remember exactly where I've read this, but I did see a picture of it. No idea if it was really issued in numbers, or just an experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scurlock Posted January 15, 2000 Share Posted January 15, 2000 The Americans designed a FLAK jacket for the troops in WWII, but the thing was just too heavy. It was put to good use in protecting bomber crews though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted January 15, 2000 Share Posted January 15, 2000 I know of two instances where a fritz helmet stopped a bullet. ONe was in Grenada (It was a 7.62 not a 12.7) and the other in training, (a 9mm). Of course when we first got Fritz helmets we set one up on the range and tested it out. It stopped the first round deflected the next but by that point the kevlar stated getting seperarated and it was easily riddles. Still they are better for protection than the old steel pots. The old flak jackets of Vietnam fame were good for peices of grenade fragments and otehr whatnot and occasioannnly stopped the round that was already slowing down. Less any one scoff at that it' still stuff that would have greviously wounded you. Of course the heat and encumberment was normally enough to dissuade you from using it if you ahd any real humping to do but that's a unit SOP issue. There is a new body armor called the Ranger Body armor. It's Kevlar and it has a trauma plate which you can put in over the sternum. It's rated at level IIIa which means it can stop a 7.62. WHile we bring them with us all the time we almost never where them for the manueverability you give up and the only time we ever put them on was either at a fire and manuever range or kill house (Where range control is watching) or a few times in Haiti when we had to kick in some doors. (Though we'd bring them along in thetruck and set them up for extra portection along teh sides of the doors. It was just too damn hot. Even in a normal infantry combat situation we didn't wear them since that normally meant days of movement to get their first, (Then again we didn't wear helmets either). Though some guys would buy the smaller under the shirt armor which has less protection but is more comfortable to wear. In the regular army though body armor wear is pretty much SOP at this point especially over seas. And I see a lot of foreign armies are issuing them for peackeeping and whatnot. Hopefully BA will get more comfortable and wearable as the years go buy... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted January 16, 2000 Share Posted January 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aacooper: Did any infantry in WW2 use body armor in WW2 (besides the helmet)? I think every personal account book of WW2 has the "bullet-stopped-by-the-bible" story happening to some person in their platoon. However, I believe the Korean War saw the re-emergence of body armor. Does anyone know how effective modern US body armor is? For example, in Desert Storm or Somalia, how many casualties did the Kevlar helmet / vest combo prevent? Are there any statistics about Vietnam? [This message has been edited by Aacooper (edited 01-13-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As LOS stated, in Vietnam it was too hot to use often and it wasn't exactly light. It was, as he said, used to stop fragments and the like. Frequently they were used to sit on during chopper rides to LZ's...or you could sit on your helmet if you wore one. I seem to recall that at least SOME Marine units up on the DMZ used them a lot, probably by SOP as someone else stated here. My father was a bomber pilot durning WW2 (having transfered from the Infantry.) THEY wore FLAK JACKETS in the planes...I have seen them..they are HEAVY..but they seem to have been of some value...hence the name FLAK jacket or vest. If memory serves, most wounds in VN were from fragments, not bullets.(I would guess it is the same in WW2 and Korea as well) But the technology of the flak vests or body armor at the time was not even close to where it is today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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