JOCHEN PEIPER Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 As you may or may not have guessed, I am a fan of OBERSTURMBANNFUHRER "JOCHEN PEIPER" I WANT TO RE-CREATE THE MALMEDY MASACRE... When in fact i actually get the game... Im from Australia and only ordered it yesterday... Gotta love the SS though, great fighters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Um... Let's just not go there, shall we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 You want to re-create a scene where surrendered GIs were gunned down by machine guns? Gee, while you're at it, how 'bout recreating the firebombing of Dresden from a civilian's perspective? Wheee! Seriously, I understand that the Bulge and the actions of Peiper are well worth recreating, but not the 'massacre' in my opinion. Even if one could disregard the tastelessness of it, it would be a turkey shoot. GAFF [This message has been edited by gaffertape (edited 07-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOCHEN PEIPER Posted July 26, 2000 Author Share Posted July 26, 2000 ONLY KIDDING FELLAS... IN ACTUAL FACT... PEIPER WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE... SOME OTHER SS OFFICER WAS... I READ THAT SOMEWHERE... PEIPER WAS OFF DOING HIS THANG SOMEWHERE WHEN IT HAPPENED... PEIPER WAS MYSTERIOUSLY SHOT IN THE 1970's I THINK ALSO... DEAD I MEAN... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 IIRC, Peiper had been living a quiet life in France. Some years after he took up residence, the harassment began. Later he was found shot in his home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Yeah, seems like you're probably just an adolescent trying to get more attention. I hope that's just the case... Without trying to defend any attrocity, it always has kind of given me a bitter taste at the propaganda style finger pointing this particular incident produced. After all, I KNOW U.S. and Canadian troops, and I'm sure the Brits as well were equally guilty of "taking care" of prisoners during a rapid advance. I have read of the Canadians dispatching a few Waffen-SS prisoners, and I have heard first hand accounts of US Marines in the Pacific "helping" prisoners die for the Emperor. Not to mention what went on on the Eastern front. It's a sad commentary on the brutal nature of war. However to "Want" to see it in a GAME is pretty bad. Seek help young man. You may need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Yes, I had heard that Peiper was not directly responsible for the massacre, but my issues were with the recreation of such a scene at all. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuka Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 All this aside, J.Peiper it is bad manners to constantly post in upper case, other members have gently pointed this out to you and either you have not read them or choose to ignore them. Either way as a new recruit to the CM board you are most welcome but please refrain from shouting every post..... There are those here who are not so understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOCHEN PEIPER Posted July 26, 2000 Author Share Posted July 26, 2000 Pleas everyone accept my appolgy I did not mean it to be funny... I had a grandfather who was in the SS an do not wish to tarnish his name... Meaning that not all SS were murdering machines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mch Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 I'll bet 75$ that this thread is locked up when I get back from school today........ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>IIRC, Peiper had been living a quiet life in France. Some years after he took up residence, the harassment began. Later he was found shot in his home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oberst, Piper moved to France sometime in the late 60's.When he began to receive death threats in June 1976,he sent his wife and kids back to Germany.Shortly afterwards,he was killed in a "pitched battle" around his house with an unknown number of men.His assailant(s) wrote to a local paper afterwards proclaiming that justice had been done to a Nazi "thug". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOCHEN PEIPER Posted July 26, 2000 Author Share Posted July 26, 2000 He was also a bloody great officer... to survive the Russian front and do so outstandingly is no mean feat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Peiper was charged and convicted of a war crime based upon his orders to not take any prisoners, IIRC. After serving his sentence he retired to France, where he was murdered one night after he was harrassed for several weeks. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Jochen said " I WANT TO RE-CREATE THE MALMEDY MASACRE..." Jochen, that's just sick AND isn't even close to being funny. Now, you'll find most people on this forum don't buy the conventional wisdom which tars the SS unfairly etc BUT attitudes like you have displayed in a couple of posts here aren't welcome either. My advice is simply to simmer down and not be trying to "celebrate" or "have fun" with massacres of human beings. As for the Malmedy massacre, Peiper wasn't on the scene BUT his orders not to take prisoners etc were to blame for the massacre to a large extent. On the other hand Eisenhower, Bradley and Patton all gave orders not to take German prisoners at various times in the war so whether Peiper was guilty of anything which the Allies also weren't guilty of is debatable. Also the number of men killed after surrender is exaggerated. It would seem that a number of men killed in the firefight BEFORE the surrender were counted in by the Allies into the number of POWs MGed ( this was done for propaganda reasons obviously and is understandable). And in closing... I understand that your attitude might be due to the fact that on other fora you might run into a blind attitude which paints all the SS as murderers. On this forum however this attitude doesn't prevail and I think a more balanced view of the SS prevails ( with certain disagreements of course (Hiya Andreas hehe ) ). BUT when someone comes and posts something in such bad taste as you did ( even if it is just intended as a joke) it almost inevitably leads to a flamewar. As a friendly suggestion I suggest that you edit your first post to remove the offensive line and try to bear in mind in future that in the same way as your grandfather was in the SS so many relatives of posters here were in the US, Canadian and British armies and that you may even be posting to people who had relatives killed at Malmedy ( puts it in a new perspective doesn't it? ). Anyways, I see an apology has been offered and hope that what you posted really was just a dreadfully poor attempt at a joke and not indicative of deeply-held beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Hiya Andreas hehe ) )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Huh? WHat? Where, me? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Reece Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Originally posted by Fionn: And in closing... I understand that your attitude might be due to the fact that on other fora you might run into a blind attitude which paints all the SS as murderers. On this forum however this attitude doesn't prevail and I think a more balanced view of the SS prevails ( with certain disagreements of course (Hiya Andreas hehe ) ). BUT when someone comes and posts something in such bad taste as you did ( even if it is just intended as a joke) it almost inevitably leads to a flamewar. Come on you guys, I think wargameres in general are too quick to label each other.Wargames themselves, by there very nature,especially the historical variety, can be labeled as tasteless by many who don't play.I think poor ol' Joachim [ not the historical one but this one] is taking a bad rap here.What would be the harm in doing a historical "rescue" scenario on this theme? None that I can see.Just another opinion, certainly not a flame. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Jochen, I would suggest reading Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen before starting any more threads like this one. Since you live in Australia you can get a copy as I believe it was banned in Germany. It details the depth and extent of Germany's guilt which reached right down to the common men and women in the street. Your grandfather may have been an honorable soldier but the society he lived in did not produce many honorable men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Schalburg Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Please let´s not get into this discussion, each side had it´s fair share of war criminals. And then no more about this subject. ------------------ In god we trust, the rest we monitor... von Schalburg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Lars, I agree, that Goldhagen is a must read. However, you will find that some people are willing to explain away the systematic actions of Germany by highlighting the occasions when the Western Allies committed war crimes. I think that one can rationally distinguish between the two without excusing the actions of British or American troops. As per the topic, the fact that Peiper was not at the seen does not (either morally or legally) exonerate him from guilt. One could do a much better job of demonstrating that not all SS were murders than by bring up Peiper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lars: JSince you live in Australia you can get a copy as I believe it was banned in Germany.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Interesting gem of wisdom Lars, unfortunately not even closely related to reality. The last time I checked the only book banned in Germany because of political content was 'Mein Kampf'. It is also a crime to deny that the Holocaust has happened, and that can get you into prison, and your publishers, so there is certainly some form of censorship. But there has in fact been very likely discussion about this very book in the German public. Germany is and has been a democracy for the last 51 years. Not a perfect one, but I think we have learned from our mistakes, at least a bit. Just checked at Amazon.de:  Hitlers willige Vollstrecker. Ganz gewöhnliche Deutsche und der Holocaust.  Daniel Jonah Goldhagen   Preis: DM 25,00 EUR 12,78 Versandfertig in 2 bis 3 Werktagen. Taschenbuch - 728 Seiten (1998) btb/Goldmann Vlg., M.; ISBN: 344275500X Amazon.de Verkaufsrang 5.928 Took all of five seconds. Maybe next time check before making rash statements. ------------------ Andreas [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 07-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Peiper wasn't on the scene BUT his orders not to take prisoners etc were to blame for the massacre to a large extent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just to set the record straight, Peiper was tried for the Malmedy massacre and sentenced to death (later commuted to jail) in a "fair" trial. It is widely believed that his murder was by some former soldiers or relatives of the dead who didn't agree with the leniency. As for the Allied "orders" not to take any prisoners, it is possible, but no documentary evidence has ever been produced to back up the anecdotal evidence. True, the victors are never put on trial after wars... Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Germanboy, Thanks for the update. I was misinformed (and I try to learn from my mistakes). I was just pointing out that as far as war crimes go there is plenty of blame to go around and it is not just limited to the SS. Germany has done a MUCH better job than Japan in trying to rectify the historical record which is entirely to its credit. By the way, I don't usually do my Amazon searches in German Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lars: By the way, I don't usually do my Amazon searches in German <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You should, it can be very illuminating, QED. But honestly, no harm done. I am just a bit concerned about statements like this b/c there are people who believe that we Germans are all being brain-washed into assuming all the guilt. If someone then claims that a very important (FWIW, I don't go along with Goldhagen's basic thesis) book is being banned in Germany, these people can just get their knickers in a twist about censorship and debate of these issues in the German society. I think another very important book were the diaries of Victor Klemperer 'I shall bear witness'. That seemed to have an even bigger impact, as far as I could make out from afar (lived in Japan during the time both of these came out). As for your point about the Japanese and their attitude to it, don't even get me started... As for German society not producing a lot of honourable men, that is a judgement I have reserved since I started thinking about these issues. It takes a lot to stand up to a totalitarian regime, and while I would like to think that I would do it, in this case the proof of the pudding is certainly in the eating. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Henri, I point you to the operational orders for the 82nd and 101st Airborne for their drops into Normandy. On their orders it CLEARLY states that they are not expected to take prisoners for the first 72 hours after landing. I'd also suggest taking a look at exactly how many prisoners they did hand over to Allied units which linked up with them. It is pretty clear that the individual officers and men took Eisenhower's orders to heart and slaughtered virtually every German they came across ( whether he was fighting or surrendering). Also, we all know from Veteran recollections that Patton often urged a rather "un-Genevaesque" attitude to Germans trying to surrender . Dick, Umm, I don't think Jochen wanted to do a "rescue scenario". I think he wanted to be the SS "shooting party". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Hmm, good points germanboy. Upon further reflection perhaps I was a bit harsh in my original post. And thanks for the book tip, looks interesting and I'll be sure to check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 26, 2000 Share Posted July 26, 2000 Fionn, I think you need to discrimnate a little bit more. By themselves, orders to not take prisoners are not illegal by any means, then or now. Now, if that means that as an alternative you will accept a surrender, and then execute those who have placed themselves into your care (as was done at Malmedy), THEN you have an illegal order. Indeed, Peiper's trila hinged around whether or not his order crossed that line. The conventions in force during WW2 between the Western powers specify that an enemies surrender was to be accepted at the discretion of the non-surrendering party. There is a difference between refusing to accept someones surrender and accepting someones surrender and then executing them. Not much of a difference, granted, but a difference nonetheless. The laws of war do recognize that tehre are times when military necessity does not allow for the acceptance of a surrender attempt. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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