Naval Guns

[Smoker]

In CM you can get troops to abandon perfectly good pillboxes by putting a smoke round through the firing slit. If the round misses, which is usually the case, you still get a nice smoke screen. A couple of tanks dedicated to this task will put one through the slit within a few minutes usually. It's worked for me several times.

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Smoker out.

[Wako]

I put together a test scenario to evaluate the effect of 14" shells on concrete pillboxes in CM. I saw at least two direct hits on the pillboxes (mixture of 75mm, 88m and MG pillboxes) with no significant damage either time. (I have the screenshots to show). To me this is not realistic. The shell weight of a 14" gun is around 1400lbs.

I am no expert by any means, but I have had some courses on the effects of explosives and transient shockwaves on materials and this amount of kinetic and explosive shock should penetrate at least a few feet of the poorly reinforced concrete that the Axis was primarily using on their emplacements. Even if the physical structure survived such a shock, the overpressure and compression of such a hit should render the soldiers inside of the bunker hors de combat. To me it makes no sense that ANY of the structures modeled in CM could survive a 14" shell.

Any comment from someone with another view on this subject?

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wako

"All models are wrong - some are useful.'' - George E.P. Box

Check out my CM webpage at http://ccpirate.webjump.com

[Törni]

I spend some 12 months on warzone in the Middle East and witnessed the results of 105mm and 155mm Israeli arty. A close hit to a a wooden structure would definately collapse it. Airbursts being less effective ofcourse. A direct hit from 14" gun would leave nothing but a smokig remains of a bunker. Direct fire being most devastating. Close hits with HE or white phosphor (WP) would decorate the interior of a bunker with a shower of death.

[Törni]

50. cal shots can surely pentrate wooden logs. They csn rip through concrete.

Accuracy beign not the issue here

[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

I seem to remember that Steve & Charles had agreed that pillboxes were too easily destroyed by arty in the demo - and that this would be adjusted in the full game - maybe what you see is a result of the tweaking??

Although to be honest a direct hit from naval guns as described by the originator of this thread should almost certainly destroy the pillbox - wooden or concrete. (As portrayed in CM - forget about 6 feet thick concrete.....cm models standard pillboxes not submarine pens.)

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[Juardis]

Well, what's the penetration depth of a 14 inch shell? I watched a documentary on the Discovery channel about Battleships. It said that a 16 inch shell fired from the USS NC could penetrate 26 inches of reinforced concrete. So it seems a 14 inch shell should have no problem with a 15 inch concrete roof. But only with a direct hit.

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Jeff Abbott

[Törni]

Have seen the pics of what kind of craters these big naval guns make? A whole house would fit in one. With a near hit a bunker would surely collapse or be destroyed. Heavy bombs and artillery shells packed enoug power to toss Tigers and Panthers around like toys.

[tss]

Törni wrote:

I spend some 12 months on warzone in the Middle East and witnessed the results of 105mm and 155mm Israeli arty. A close hit to a a wooden structure would definately collapse it.

Note that modern artillery is more effective than WWII artillery.

A WWII vintage 105 mm gun wouldn't destroy a well-made wooden bunker with a single top hit. However, even a 75 mm shell could (and did) knock out poorly made bunkers.

A 150 mm gun might or might not knock out a well-made wooden bunker with one hit. Two or three direct hits would certainly be enough.

Artillery that was larger than that would almost certainly destroy a wooden bunker with one hit.

- Tommi

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

I seem to remember that Steve & Charles had agreed that pillboxes were too easily destroyed by arty in the demo - and that this would be adjusted in the full game - maybe what you see is a result of the tweaking??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, in the demo, a 105 shell hitting a concrete pillbox

would almost certainly destroy it. 80mm mortar would kill wooden

bunkers. Lethality of shelling was decreased for the game.

This discussion is all about if the shell effect was decreased

too much. I'd say it was.

I might be wrong, but the problem seems to be inherited from bunkers

being modelled as kind of tanks, instead of buildings. Artillery

can't eat its way through. It's either a penetration,

or no damage.

[Los]

A quick point: Don't confuse modern day battleship rounds with their WW2 cousins....

Los

[Joe Shaw]

Actually LOS, seems like I saw a report that a lot (if not all) of the 16" rounds used by the Iowa class were WW2 or Korea vintage. I could be wrong but I recall during the Gulf War someone reporting that.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Shaw (edited 07-18-2000).]