brk Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Well, I just got CM, and I've been playing a lot of QBs. Something very annoying keeps happening to me though. I take a VL, usually with a full platoon. I emplace my men in the best cover I can find, usu woods or tall pine, and try to offer them support with a tank. What happens? Nearly every time, I get charged by squad after squad of infantry, until they overrun my position. This morning, for example, I was playing as defending Amis, in an assault. One of my flags had some woods right behind it, and a 2 story light building right next to it. I emplaced a full platoon of veteran troops in the woods, along with an M2 in the bldg. Support on my left flank came from a 60mm mortar. This positition was charged across about 300 meters of open ground by six Axis infantry squads. What happened? Total kills by my three squads and M2 were about eight men, while two of my three squads broke and ran after losing six to eight men. The other squad only lost one man, but didn't account for *any* kills. This, to me, does not seem like a realistic result. In fact, it seems ridiculous that the AI would even attempt to charge a position like that with infantry, and that the infantry would do it, under heavy fire every inch of the way. Is this an accurate representation of a charge on a dug-in position? I'd appreciate anyone's comments on their similar experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Ever hear of a place called Nijmegan? It's possible... ------------------ It takes three years to build a battleship. It takes three hundred to build a tradition. Admiral Cunningham, Aegean, May 1941. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Did you happen to check the experience level of the German troops? If they were elite or even crack, then it's plausible. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brk Posted August 14, 2000 Author Share Posted August 14, 2000 umm...no, never heard of Nijmegan. Just looked, and saw it was a battle in Holland, but couldn't find any specifics. Can you provide a brief precis? And while I'm sure it is possible for troops to charge a position, and take few casualties, given the situation I'm describing, it seems like such an unequal exchange, backwards from what I'd expect, particularly given the lack of cover and covering fire for the attacking force. The German troops were of "medium" quality, so they couldn't have been more than veterans themselves, and even so, they suffered very few casualties for the number of turns (5? 6?) that they were exposed to fire. [This message has been edited by brk (edited 08-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Also, which patch are you currently using brk? The current it 1.03 and does make some minor tweak to close in combat if I recall correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brk Posted August 14, 2000 Author Share Posted August 14, 2000 patch is 1.03. This wasn't close as in h2h though, but rather a situation where the Germans were being fired on by the .50 from about 500 to 100 meters range, till the .50 lost a few men and retreated (it caused two casualties), and from about 300 meters in to sub-one hundred meters by two dug-in, veteran, Ami squads, as well as another veteran Ami squad, which provided marginally less effective fire due to a poor LOS (it could only target one or two enemy squads, while the others had clear LOS to all six attacking squads). All Ami squads were in command radius of their commander as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Well, in the situation you described, unless you screwed up somehow in placing your men, you generally should win that encounter. Did you make sure that your men were within command radius of your HQ unit? If not, that could explain why your troops broke and ran. In most of my gameplay, more often than not, you would win, but luck is very fickle. Either you screwed up the placement, or bad luck rained on your parade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWorthing Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 And remember that there is FOW in that kill stats so you might be inflicting more casualties than you think. I remember playing VOT in the demo and having no trouble with the AI's infantry charges. I took out a lot of them that way. I can't help but think you are doing something wrong (no offense meant). I've been playing mostly pbems so maybe I'm not the most qualified to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter S Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Statistically speaking, nearly ANYTHING is possible on the battlefield. And statistically speaking, it sounds like you got the short end of the stick this time around! Did you save the game prior to hitting the 'GO' button for that turn where the Germans initiated the charge? Reload it several times and see if the outcome is the same every time. If you're really curious then use the editor and try to faithfully recreate that particular setup. Rest assured, I doubt those German squads will prevail as often as you think. These troops you used to secure the VP area, did they experience combat and/or sustain any casualties prior to manning these defensive positions? They may have had low morale at this point when the Germans rushed them. Also keep in mind that those six German squads (60+ men) running like mad towards your position can have a considerable effect on your troops' Tactical AI! Finally, keep in mind that it came down to six versus three (mortars aren't too useful against fast moving target(s)), so even if each of your units had a different target, that leaves three German squads free to keep running like hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatAWilson Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Everything that I have ever seen CM do makes sense. If I charge with proper suppression, I get results. If I charge without it I get slaughtered. I have seen the same rules applied to the AI. Yesterday I was playing one of the scenarios. After stopping the AI attack cold I ordered an infantry charge to counterattack, thinking that I had all of the right ingredients in place for a success. I got chopped up. That's why I like this game, doing the right things usually produces the right results but there is always a change that it'll throw you a curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Yesterday I played the scenario "First Clash at Cambres". At one point I had a vet Motorized platoon of 2 squads and their leader in a two story building. One squad upstairs, the leader and otehr squad down. The Brits threw what seemed like an entire company at that position. By the time I pulled them out during a lull (since they were all out of ammo) my platoon had taken 8 losses and inflicted over 60 confirmed, who knows how many total. They seemed like they held up pretty well... Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Devils Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 Why would someone write, " Ever hear of Nijmegan?" without giving any other info? How in anyway does that help the poster of this thread w/ his question? Der! Lets try and be a little more constructive and a little less Superior sounding folks! ------------------ I'm sorry, we haven't the facilities to take all of you prisoner. Was there anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red Devils: Why would someone write, " Ever hear of Nijmegan?" without giving any other info? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My bad. I was under the assumption that that particular event (immortalized in film and a CM stock scenario), was so famous that nobody could possibly have not heard of it. I wasn't trying to sound superior. I was just pointing out a real life instance where an impossible infantry charge succeeded. It also would have helped analyzing what happened in this turn if some information had been provided about what kind of fire the defenders were receiving. Were they even shooting back or were they cowering? It kinda makes a difference. ------------------ Lucasta, when to France your man Returns his fourth time, hating war, Yet laughs as calmly as he can And flings an oath, but says no more, That is not courage, that’s not fear— Lucasta he’s a Fusilier, And his pride sends him here. [This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 08-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brk Posted August 15, 2000 Author Share Posted August 15, 2000 Yes, the defenders were shooting back. Placement seemed pretty good to me; they all had clear line of sight, etc. Yes, my men were within their commander's command radius. And this wasn't just a one-turn charge across no-man's-land. It was several turns of Germans advancing across a few hundred meters of open grass. This was also an "assault", so my men were emplaced in foxholes, in woods. This was a fairly carefully chosen position, and while I could be doing something wrong, I'm not sure what. I try to provide the best cover possible for my infantry, combined with command supervision, and a good field of fire. Beyond that, I'm not sure how to improve my defensive infantry tactics. It just seemed so weird to me to watch these germans advance turn after turn, without taking hardly any casualties. I mean, it's not like they were advancing against early-war Russian conscripts, armed with one rifle and some molotov cocktails . Oh yeah, and I checked the casualties by unit after the battle was over, which I have been assuming gives correct figures, so that is where I am drawing my kill figures. In summary, it seems that 1), maybe I'm wrong, and my men inflicted more casualties than I thought, due to FOW. 2), maybe it's one of those freak happenings that occur when statistics come into play, or 3) maybe I'm doing something wrong. Anyway, thanks for all your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brk Posted August 15, 2000 Author Share Posted August 15, 2000 I just found another thread in which Talenn is expressing similar doubts about the ability of troops to cross in front what should be heavy suppressing fire: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/006819.html (Questioning the effectiveness of MGs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Oh yeah, and I checked the casualties by unit after the battle was over, which I have been assuming gives correct figures, so that is where I am drawing my kill figures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not that there still might not be an issue here (you don't happen to have the turns still, do you?) But, even at the end of the game, your kills count is only for squads that you had fully identified. So, if any of the squads were 'Infantry Squad?' or something like that as they came across, you won't see the casualties for them (even at the end of the game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Freaky things happen. I tried stopping an AI assault yesterday. I had an SMG platoon hiding in a patch of woods. The first squad to come was killed, but then 2 squads followed and killed my platoon. The attacking squads ran across an opening while under SMG fire, but suffered only 4 casualties. There was some fire towards my men, but they weren't overly bothered by it. My SMG platoon was veteran, attacking riflemen were regulars. Things like this happen now and then, but not too often. ------------------ Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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