Why is the American M3A1 mounted with a 75mm cannon not included in CM?

[Guest Mark Jensen]

I have a reference that says it was used Nov 42 to May 45. Is it a playability thing or?

Best regards

Mark "DarkAngel" Jensen

Denmark

[Mace]

According to my references, the mounting of the 75mm on the M3 was an interim measure to introduce mobile 'Tank Destroyers' to the front line until those based on the M4 Sherman chasis could be introduced.

These were rendered obsolescent once the M10 etc appeared.

I think you'll see this variant in the Western Desert variant of CM.

Mace

[Airborne]

It was used late in the war but by the Marines. After N. Africa the US Army realized how inadequate it was as a TD. The M10 replaced it for Sicily and beyond..

It was good as mobile artillery and inf fire support.

If used offensively, it got chewed to pieces. Plus, I've read accounts where it was top heavy and tipped over. It was in production into 1943 (over 2000) but most were converted back to regular HTs..

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Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[Malmvig]

In the light of game balance it would be nice to have a US equivalent to the 251/9 or some mechanized unit that is cable to do the wrestling with the Puma. The british have the Daimler which is cable of destroying some tanks like the German Stug. In Combat Mission, the US army totally lack mechanized support. My guess would be that the M3A1, M2 75mm L/28 version would be in a position to change the score a little bit. This is ofcause only true when playing the mechanized infantery without tank support. I would claim that if the M10 was added to the list of Armored/Scout or the M3A1 was added, it would become more fun to play the Americans in a mechanized battle.

However, I think that many would perfer to include tanks in their battles which would make these changes obsolete. But the option may still be put to a test, if the BTS plan to extend the OOB.

Henrik Malmvig

[Ben Galanti]

Malmvig,

Have you tried using the M8 Greyhound? I've found that to be a very nice recon vehicle. The 37mm packs enough punch to take out HTs and armored cars easily...

Ben

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ben Galanti:

Malmvig,

Have you tried using the M8 Greyhound? I've found that to be a very nice recon vehicle. The 37mm packs enough punch to take out HTs and armored cars easily...

Ben<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Ben. The M8 is quite a formidable vehicle when handled correctly. Small, fast and the 37mm can take out any light armor and some heavier stuff head on (PzKfw IVs for example). The British Daimler is no pushover either, though the lack of HE is something of a handicap.

[Guest rune]

I have done extensive research on this one. The HT with the 75mm was never used other then in Sicily in Europe. It was used in Africa, then sent to the Marines in the Pacific area as someone else has stated. Gameplay or not, it was never in theatre, so should not be included. Sources include the Curator at the Patton Museum among others...

Rune

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

I've seen lots of footage showing the Greyhound providing long range suppresing fire supporting infanty in urban enviroments. But using it in that role at most ranges in CM is deadly for it. Have not tested it with 1.04 yet. Maybe I'll go play a GB mechinized game.

[Colin]

Ahhhh the mighty M8 Greyhound. It can withstand 20mm cannon fire! You have no idea how rewarding it is to watch shells bounce off of it!!! It's an amazing vehicle. It can take out pretty much anything smaller then a PZIV. I find it sort of pathetic that the PZIV is susceptible to the 37mm. Oh and the 37mm has an amazing ROF so it has a fairly good chance of taking out larger vehicle simply by the volume of fire. You can also use them to tie up infantry until you can maneuver larger units like tanks to help.

I always have at least one of these vehicles. Try them if you haven't!

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And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh.

-Steve

My website!

[Guest Mark Jensen]

Hi Rune (and all others), thanks for your answer. If it wasn't in Europe the it shouldn't be in CM.

Best regards

Mark "DarkAngel" Jensen

[Malmvig]

I'am embarrassed to say that I did not know that the M8 was that kind of an opponent. If an 37mm can do that kind of damage it may have something to do with the velocity of it's shell. I'am in the beginneing of a pbem against US mechanized forces so I may have a big supprise on my hand. But anyway, I still think that my 75mm cannon would do some harm, even against them M8th The kinetic energy of an 75mm shell may be a little bit stronger than the 37mm over a longer distance but I realized that it's nessesary to know that stats. I just thourght that the 75mm was superior to the 37mm shell.

Thanks

Henrik Malmvig

[Rattus]

Rune - I thought the Free French were given about 50+ of them & used them in Italy or N/W Europe. Maybe they only used them for training... Can/t find my my source so maybe I am way wrong. Were you just referring to US usage?

[Rod]

I just had a M8 take out a hull down tiger with just one shot. My jaw just dropped. Thought I was doomed but then my Puma took out the M8 and a sherman 105 to quickly even the odds again.

Oh my Tiger did manage to take out a jeep before dying.

[Airborne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rattus:

Rune - I thought the Free French were given about 50+ of them & used them in Italy or N/W Europe. Maybe they only used them for training... Can/t find my my source so maybe I am way wrong. Were you just referring to US usage?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The British and French got them under lend-lease.. they were used in the fire support role, not as TDs..

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Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[Fionn]

The size of shell is only part of the issue Malmvig.

Since armour penetration is basically a result of both mass and velocity the mass (related to size) is only part of the equation.

The velocity is basically determined by the length of the barrel firing the shell ( expressed in calibres).

Thus a 75mm L/24 ( 75mm gun of 24 calibres length) does LESS penetration than a 50mm L60.

[Rattus]

Airborne - Thanks - did they equip their (the Free French) Regimental Cannon Companies - or similar for direct fire support or were they used simply as mobile arty (like the priest) for indirect fire?

[Airborne]

I don't have the TO&E of the 2nd FF Armored Division (I suspect it is very similar to US) There was an AT regiment --Regiment blinde de Fusiliers-Marins in the 2nd FF AD.

They used the M10s and 17lber Achilles as tank destroyers but used the M3 as support vehicles--probably more like the M7.

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Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[Guest rune]

The Free French had them in Italy, but they were NOT used. They were used for training, but not in combat. The M10 quickly replaced them. Hope this clears this up....

Rune

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Malmvig:

In the light of game balance it would be nice to have a US equivalent to the 251/9 or some mechanized unit that is cable to do the wrestling with the Puma. The british have the Daimler which is cable of destroying some tanks like the German Stug. In Combat Mission, the US army totally lack mechanized support. My guess would be that the M3A1, M2 75mm L/28 version would be in a position to change the score a little bit. This is ofcause only true when playing the mechanized infantery without tank support. I would claim that if the M10 was added to the list of Armored/Scout or the M3A1 was added, it would become more fun to play the Americans in a mechanized battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Malvig, you should give the M8 Howitzer Motor Carriage (NOT the same as the M8 armored car) a try. They're cheap and pack a useful punch. And if you need something more powerful, go to the 105 Sherman close support tank.

[Guest grunto]

In the cavalry those M3A1s with 75s were replaced by M8 HMC Assault Guns.

Andy

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin:

I find it sort of pathetic that the PZIV is susceptible to the 37mm. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That 37mm is probably one of the '37LL' variety from ASL. It could take out a PZIV some of the time in the front. In the sides or rear at close range it's even better. With Greyhounds I've taken out 2 Panthers in separate PBEMs, both from the side or rear.

The Greyhound is fast with a decent punch. Throw in the old M8 HMC and you have light armor better than anything the Germans can field in the way of haltracks or armored cars.

I've been trying some 'troops' or 'squadrons' of M8 Greyhounds: 3 Greyhounds and 6 .50 cal Jeeps with a platoon of infantry and an HQ, and some 60mm mortars. That's a good little force if you ask me.

It's around 500 points.

The speed and firepower of all of those units combined is excellent. It's the ability to take a pounding that they don't have. The tradeoff is worth it. The M8 Greyhound and .50 cal jeep were the backbone of the cavalry according to that one web site.

I took 3 PSW234/1s with a 234/3, a platoon (2 squads) and hq of infantry, 2 20mm flaks and 3 kubelwagens and finally 2 spw250/9 (20mm).

That was also about 500 points. I was Germans against the AI having the American force listed above. I tried to run a road and the Americans shot up most of my vehicles... all except for 1 250/9 and 2 kubelwagens. The hq was eliminated as well as a half-squad. There was also 1 20mm aa remaining.

The Americans on the other hand still had a Greyhound, a platoon of infantry, and several 'jeep 50s,' along with their two mortars.

Yeah give me the Greyhound with 'jeep 50s' any day over psw234/1 - which after all was twice as common as the Puma. The SPW251/9 and 250/9 and the like also all have nice paint jobs but the Greyhound will kill those vehicles if it hits any of them from any angle it seems.

And as someone mentioned, that 37mm reloads quickly.

The Greyhound is better than any German armored car.

The M8 HMC is better than either of the German 75mm halftracks (spw251/9 then later spw250/8).

Andy

[Guest Mark Jensen]

No no no. This is not the point. What I mean (as Malmvig states) is that when you play as the Americans in an Mechanized force you don't have access to the M8 HMC or similar ARMOR. Because the armor point value is 0. So the point is that the Americans can't field anything greater than 37mm and it can therefore be a little hard to destroy German vehicles.

Best regards

Mark "DarkAngel" Jensen

Denmark

[This message has been edited by Mark Jensen (edited 08-29-2000).]

[Malmvig]

Thats some interesting news you got here Mark. It seems like this topic is still open for question.

In the mechanized pbem battle, that I'am playing at present time, It seems like the Germans got the upperhand because their roster included the Puma.

May be a open question afterall

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Malmvig

[IntelWeenie]

Pumas (and all other armored cars/HTs) don't fall in the Armor category. They come under "Vehicle". There's nothing in that for the US that's got anything bigger than 37mm (M8 Greyhound), while the Germans have the Puma (50mm), the 234/3 (75mm) and the 251/9 (75mm).

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[John Kettler]

Guys,

I believe if you check the World At War episode covering the bocage fighting after D-Day you'll see the vehicle in question. I distinctly remember seeing it in the footage and being stunned by the sight of it.

Regards,

John Kettler