Do we need crest lines?

[terry1040]

I usually have problems to identify the lay of terrain in CM. From the birdseye view, you get little information about good spotting and hiding positions. I would like to suggest an optional crest line feature, to make it easier to identify areas of the same hight.

Great Demo, can't wait for the game...

[Guest Pham]

That's actually a pretty good idea. I do most of my long term, multi-move plotting from the overhead view and then have to move to 3 or 4 view to fine tune the moves because there's no sense of height at all in the overhead. Patch maybe? Hopefully it won't have to wait for CM2.

[cannon]

I think what you are describing are topographic lines like on a topographic map. I think this would be a good idea too. I'm pretty color blind myself and have great difficulty telling elevations from the overhead view. Some sort of topographic lines would be nice. I would even settle for a color scheme that is not concentrated in the color blind region. These are the red/green colors for the majority of us. A different palette was made available for Alpha Centauri to help those of us who are color blind and it worked really well for me. It made the game play so much easier. Of course the new colors were atrocious, but I could tell the difference between the new shades so much easier. I'm sure people without color blindness have no idea what I'm talking about.

This link will give some indication: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/8833/coloreye.html

Most of you will have no difficulty seeing the numbers. Myself, I can only makeout two of the numbers in the set. If your having trouble with elevations in CM, you probably cannot see all the numbers either.

Robert

[Bullethead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From the birdseye view, you get little information about good spotting and hiding positions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True. Which is why you shouldn't use the birdseye views when the LOS from the unit's position is critical. Get down on the ground with the #1 view (using SHF-a and SHF-z as needed to tilt the POV).

This is one of my favorite features of CM. LOS tools are all very well, but nothing beats actual terrain reconnaissance from the perspective of your actual units, and no other game lets you do this. Makes me feel more like I'm actually in the fight instead of sitting up on a cloud with Woden and the Valkyries.

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-Bullethead

jtweller@delphi.com

WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

I agree with Bullethead here.

Remember with Combat Mission, you must "unlearn what you have learned" from other wargames. In Combat Mission you do not have those large areas of elevation change like you do in Steel Panthers or Talonsoft's Campaign series. In CM you have elevation change within the meter or so. So in order to see these, you have to get down on the ground with your troops and look for yourself.

The addition of topography lines is another one of those features that would be unnecessary because we already have the tools to see the topography and that would be camera view #1.

[anvil]

I too agree with Bullethead.. with this degree of terrain, it is a trip to use the overhead map as if it were just that..a field map with strategic points easily identifiable, but the grunt at theend of the stick has the real pic and to go to his mark one eyeball level for the real view is superb..

[ARCHANGEL]

I agree with old BH as well. He hit the nail right on the head.

[cannon]

I agree with bullethead also. If you need to check LOS it is best done from the ground.

However, when I am trying to manouver my troops, if you can call what I do manouvering. I like to use the overhead view. Especially during the early stages of the game. This does not work as well for me as it does for others because I have trouble differentiating the shades on the map. The VOT scenario is the only one in which I can actually see changes in elevation. It would be nice to be able to see changes in elevation on maps that aren't as extreme in their elevation changes. Changing the coloring or adding topography lines would accomplish this. I would expect that their are a lot of other people having the same difficulty since color blindness is pretty common among men.

[Guest tom w]

Contour lines were discussed some time ago. A search for contour lines in a Topographic map will reveal at least one thread on this issue.

the current map format highlites crests and elevation with lighter green shades. I too felt at first that the contour lines of an elevation or topographic map would be a very nice feature if the player could toggle them on and off.

But I totally agree with Bullethead to play this game successfully you MUST get down on the ground in camera view control 1 and look around. the Easiest way to do this that I have found is to select a nearby unit and hit tab to lock the view to that unit then control 1 to get on the ground then move the camera around like you were walking around on the ground to see what you can see, if you want to try to spot somthing you can zoom in like you have binoculars. I really believe that if you spend enough time walking around on the ground in camera position control 1 that you can VERY easily get a good feel for the elevation and if you don't do this your tanks and units probably won't be directed by you to the most effective location they could be.

I think most players new to this game do not spend enought time down on the ground with their troops in Camera position control 1 to get a feel for what their units can actually see and shoot at, (or been seen and shot at)

-tom w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[OneShot]

I have also thought topographical lines would be nice. That way I could print the map, take it to work, and plan a strategy in my spare time. The LOS doesnt work if you aren't at your PC. This would also be a great way to play the game in that you could only use the lowest camera angle and a print out of the map to command your forces. Now that would be realistic.

Besides I love studying maps. wierd, huh?

[cannon]

Yes, we all agree that camera view 1 is a very important view.

The problem is that the overhead view is also a very important view. Unfortunately, there are some of us who cannot see any topographical information from the overhead view due to color blindness. I find vot easier to play because it's elevation changes are so extreme that the differences in shades are discernable from the overhead view. I would like to be able to see this on all of the maps. When the game is issued there are going to be a whole hell of a lot more maps to play and I would like to be able to make use of the overhead view. I know that a new color palette was issued for Alpha Centauri after it came out because of a similar issue. I think when this game is distributed and there are more maps available it is going to be a bigger problem with CM.

Frankly, I don't think topographic lines are going to be the answer. I think coding them in would be to hard. I do think they would be very nice to have from a map readers standpoint. I think an alternate palette might be more doable. The one used for SMAC was atrocious, but I happily used it since it did make such a great difference in playability. I think that there are going to be a significant number of people frustrated by this game and they are not going to know why. My experience with SMAC has made me much more aware of how much more enjoyable a game can be when this is taken in to consideration. I liken it to going to a play or movie and not being able to hear the dialogue.

[ColumbusOHGamer]

I fully agree with Tom. I really believe that the lack of topo lines adds a great deal to the realism. Yeah, it's a pain at first, but once you get used to it (4-6 games), it's wonderful.

The color-blind issue seems like it should be relatively easy to solve. Correct me if I've got this wrong, but since most of the graphics in the game are bitmaps, all it needs is for someone to take the time (a lot) to change the hue/color/whatever of each picture so those of you that have color differentiation problems can have a different set of bitmaps to use.

I would suggest having it as a d/l on the BTS website, not as a programmed tool for the game. The programming isn't required if only the bitmaps change color.

Thanks.

COG

[Rookie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead:

This is one of my favorite features of CM. LOS tools are all very well, but nothing beats actual terrain reconnaissance from the perspective of your actual units, and no other game lets you do this. Makes me feel more like I'm actually in the fight instead of sitting up on a cloud with Woden and the Valkyries.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Bullethead too. Not because he's right,But because he'll beat me up If I don't

-Rookie

[This message has been edited by Rookie (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Simon Fox]

Lack of topographical lines=realism???

Huh?

Sure I agree that getting down there in camera views 1-3 has no substitute but lets not get too extreme here. Proper maps have topographical lines so how are they unrealistic in a top down view?

Personally I would really like to see topographical lines in the editor as an option. At the moment the elevations are shown as a whole pile of numbers which are quite distracting.

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"Nah, I'm totally straight-laced. I just play a pervert on the net." - Fionn

[Guest Big Time Software]

Topo lines would be cool, but oh so very hard to implement. I won't go into the whys exactly (since I would have to ask Charles to refresh my memory since this was discussed about 2 years ago between us ), but it certainly isn't something that can be tossed in.

Just to add my two bits here, I never use the overhead views (#5-8) when playing. I use #3 or #4 for the most part and #1 and #2 for critical LOS checks.

Simon, I can pretty much promise you that there will be no topo lines in the Editor. The numbers aren't that hard to get used to when you actually get in there and use the thing first hand.

Steve

[cannon]

The topo lines are pretty much what I expected. Too difficult to implement. Although, I still think they would be very nice to have. I am still pressing for some sort of alternative pallette that does not really so heavily on shades of red and green for the terrain. I find the 1st person views difficult to use too because of this issue. It's definitly not a show stopper, but would in my opinion make things a lot nicer for a significant number of us with some degree of color blindness.