Small Gripe

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>aybe there should be a tutorial that explains different stratagies to the regs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a tutorial in the manual that will help establish some of the basics. But since warfare is a complex form of art, there is no simple and easy answers about how to play better (like Red Alert or something). In fact, this has been one of the things most loved by the highschool WWII newbie. The game forces you to learn by paying close attention to what you are doing. Most games don't have that kind of intuitive depth.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>u cant push a newbie into a game and expect him to pick everything up right away,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct. If a newbie could pick up CM and know everything that there is to know about it... we would have failed miserably in our job to make the ulitimate wargame. However, I know of plenty of newbies that have kicked some serious butt. Experience counts for a lot, but often intuition counts for a lot more. You can learn experience but intuition is pretty much a have it or not sort of thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> but u cant expect him to enjoy a game if there is an obvious unfairness in some missions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CM is not designed to let the player win simply because he is human. You either earn your victories or you lose. If this sort of challenge does not float your boat, no sweat. CM was not designed to please everybody, so no hard feelings

Steve

[OGSF]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DukesterMM:

[bas for demo. gold demo is what is in the regular game. says so on the site, and until the writin on it is changed it stands the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that's correct. You are playing the demo, based on the gold code, but it isn't the full game. I'm not sure what you want to hear.

As a number of people with long experience playing the full version of this game have pointed out to you, if you play this wargame utilizing real world tactics, you will be more successful. If you don't know what those tactics are and want to learn, search this forum, read some books, play against people who know and observe how they kick your butt.

Right now it appears that you suck when it comes to playing against the AI in the demo. As this is obviously impossible, the problem must lie with the game, not the way you play it.

"but I hate the fact that most missions are based on whoevers tanks last longest."

That would be "most" as in "the one on the demo" I guess.

OGSF

[Guest ACTOR]

Dukestermm I can speak from some level of authority here. I am currently the lowest ranked player at the Tournament House. That means I am number 75 of 75. I can tell you that my experience falls into the category you mention. I lack the tactical knowledge that many here have.

Despite my status I enjoy the game more than I can say. I love PBEMing with folks and I am getting better all the time. The many links and discussions here at this forum provide a great deal of reading material. All that having been said, you just gotta keep playing and you will win, eventually. I agree with the Captain here, bump you assets up some and go clean house.

Good luck...and send me some too...I need it.

WaffenSS just reported a game we finished and I am no longer number 75 out of 75. But, when he whips me in the current game I may once again hold that title.

[This message has been edited by ACTOR (edited 10-09-2000).]

[russellmz]

im sorry if my tone is high and mighty.

it's just i disliked unrealistic games because of things like five guys with a rifle blowing away my tank.(arghhh! how i hated the little finks in red alert...russian 'heavy' tank my arse) i digress from my 'i hate rts games except for homeworld' rant.

CM was geared toward the 'realism is cool' crowd. i mean we like the idea of our out-numbered troops running in fear from tanks.

and we like that real tactics are needed. it's conventional wisdom in the wargame crowd that 'flank assualt' = 'good idea'.

so, yes a newbie would be at a disadvantage. but if he learns the basic rules in the real art of war, he'll do much better. in a few games, your bazookas will be wasting panthers and you'll cheer'em on

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[DukesterMM]

1) says on the gold demo that it is what the final game is made of and not to report bugs.

2) im real fnuckin tired and gotta sleep. I'll reply to your replys tomorrow. nighty night.

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1) says on the gold demo that it is what the final game is made of and not to report bugs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not that it makes any difference, but the Gold Demo is based on the 1.02 code. It says that on the download page. The full version is 1.05. However, the differences don't have much to do with your complaints. We didn't make CM less realistic, but instead more realistic since 1.02

Bottom line: either this game is for you or it isn't. So best advice is to sit back and figure this out before making a purchase. If you should decide it isn't for you, no hard feelings. But if you do, there are many ways to get better at the game while having fun at the same time.

Steve

[chrisl]

Dukester - a couple of recommendations on how to learn better tactics:

1) play a few turns with fog of war turned off, and watch what the AI does. The AI isn't a tactical genius, but it will punish you if you make mistakes. I played board games much like CM for years, and got spanked in my first attempt with the beta demo. A couple of turns with fog of war off to watch how the AI played helped a lot.

2) Go to http://combathq.thegamers.net and look at some of the after action reports. They can be very entertaining and educational. There's even a "training center" aar by LOS. I think there should still be some there that you can watch with the gold demo.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Oh, and Dukester, one more thing Ill add here that may be part of your hassles you experiencing with tanks.

Make sure you are using the HUNT command instead of the move or move fast command. This should keep your tanks on the look out for enemy armour.

Dan

[DarkSkinny]

If You like to read, I would suggest Team Yankee. It's modern but the experience is still valid. As far as your units routing, that is usally what happens when someone is standing in the road as a car is coming at them. I would also suggest renting the movie Kelly's Heroes. With Clint Eastwood the last 30 minutes are excellent!!!!!

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Brett Wilson SGT.CA Guard

[Chupacabra]

Dukester -

I came into this game knowing virtually nothing about Real WW2 Tactics , except what's common sense. IE - it's better to shoot at someone when they can't shoot back, it's better to have two people shooting at someone than one person, it's better to shoot at someone from the back than from the front, it's better to shoot at someone a lot than a little, that sort of thing.

But as for the "Well, SOP among Sherman drivers in August 1944 was to..." stuff, I'm clueless.

And you know what? The game is fun. And I'm learning. If it's not fun for you, that's one thing, but you seem to be requesting a change which would detract from everyone else's fun, and that's another thing entirely.

As people have pointed out, there are several good tutorials in the full game.

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[KiwiGrunt]

The German Ferdinands at Kursk were mostly destroyed by infantry I believe (correct me if I am wrong). Good tactics and a little luck seems to me to be the best policy.

[Holdit]

Losing all your tanks first isn't the end of the world. In Chance Encounter, I've lost all three StuGs for only two Shermans, only to have my infantry take care of the rest (against the AI, admittedly). I played a scenario recently where I had US company with no armour, and was suddenly faced with a Panzer IV. I just kept everyone as far away from it as possible until it moved out from behind some smoke for a better view and was killed by a bazooka team (alright, alright, it was the AI again). The point is that there is no equation along the lines of "more tanks = victory". Even though life is easier if you have some, it's not the end of the world if you don't, especially in a world of shaped charge infantry anti-tank weapons.

[This message has been edited by Holdit (edited 10-09-2000).]

[Herr Oberst]

When you have tanks, you cannot always expect them to be Uber-units that will save the battle for you. Sometimes not having them makes you focus on sound tactics for the grunts.

Lady Luck is notoriously fickle, and I have played the same homemade battle around four times.

Once I lost only 1 MkIV out of 5 while scoring a major victory, I usually lose 2-3 out of 5.

Another time I had only one tank left. Thinking the AI was beat, and it was mop-up time, I sent a three MkIVs up across a ridge. Infantry had been up there for a while, and I thought it was clear. It was... except for the 17lbr way off in the woods. Two tanks were in flames before I'd even id'd the source.

[MadDog0606]

I usually don't play a game without at least one tank to back me up. But out of curiosity today during my lunch break I decided to "Go Without".

I setup a QB, village, moderate woods, gental hills:

US side(Me): (defense)

one regular infantry company, 2 extra regular rifle platoons, 4 extra bazookas, one extra 50cal, and one 81mm spotter. About 1000 pts.

SS German side(AI): Combined arms (attack)

2 late Stug III's, one PzIVJ, 5 Halftracks(251's), some motorized infantry, and some pioneers (the computer picked them). All veterens by the way.

I know the computer is not that good on attack. But I wanted to see what would happen if I didn't have any tanks. I felt naked!

I set up my zooks in the woods (within infantry support) covering likly avenues of attack for tanks (covering roads that go through woods, or at a bend in the road, or a clearing between woods). I set ambush markers and I told the zooks to hide.

The German tanks were eliminated within the first four turns. I did lose two zook teams. One was lost while acting as target practice (not my choice) for a Stug (the Stug was killed the next turn by another zook. One zook was killed by the SS crew of the Pz IVJ (the germans ran, about 50 yards, striaght at my zook team and killed them).

Two of the halftracks were killed by zooks, two by the 1911 and the 50cal, and one halftrack was killed by an infantry platoon I had move up behind the Germans.

So it is possible to win without tanks.

P.S.

I sucked big time when I first started to play this game. I got some tanks and told them CHARGE! To my chagrin I learned that don't work. I had to throw out the tactics I had learned in the Steel Panther series of games. I had to read up on "Real World Tactics". I found some books on WW2 tank and infantry tactics, both German and US. I pulled out my Tacops3.0 pubs CD (modern tactics to be sure, but still tactics). And I read them. Now I don't do so badly. I'm getting the hang of correctly using zooks, infantry, arty, and tanks in a combined arms way. I still don't have the use of smoke down right, but I will get the hang of it. And one of these days I WILL be god of my PC and kick the AIs rear every time I play it, no matter what disadvantage I give myself.

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 10-09-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MadDog0606:

So it is possible to win without tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to drive that point home - I managed to win a QB against Goanna (admittedly at night and in pouring rain) where he had German combined Arms and I had US infantry. Both sides green. He brought HTs, Stugs, and one or two Mk IV tanks. I had two AT guns and lots of zooks, mortars and pioneers. End-result lots of smoking armour, lots of very dead infantry, lots of medals for my pioneers and zook teams alround, and a tactical victory for me in a PBEM. This is not a tank-dominated game by any means. I would actually argue the contrary. Your tanks will become smoking scrap-metal if you don't screen them with the PBI faster than you can say Panzerschreck.

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Andreas

[Jeff Heidman]

The funny thing is that there is such a pre-conception that CM (or WW2 comabt in general) is a tank game with a few scatterings of infantry thrown in for good measure.

While those who know something about the reality of WW2 combat know better, many do not.

I had a PBEM game where I had two tanks. A Pz IV and a JPz IV/70. They were supporting a company of infantry defending a small town against an Allied attack.

After a good chunk of the battle went on, I was sweating. My infantry were starting to crumble under his well managed and covered assault. He had a few more tanks than I to start with, but careful ambushes and such had managed to whittle him down to a last Jumbo facing my remaining PzIV. A lucky shot from my PzIV killed the last allied armor.

But my infantry was almost completely routed. He was pushing hard, and I was unsure how I could stop him.

Then he resigned. With the loss of his last tank, he felt he had no chance to take the town. I was stunned. He was pretty danged good, and frankly I felt that not only was I not winning, I was in imminent danger of being routed off of the map! Sure, I had a tank and he did not, but that tank can only cover one approach, and would ahve had to move around a lot to try to fight off the large amounts of troops. Tank moving around a lot to fight infantry in towns inevitably meet an unpleasant end.

I still think he would have won had he not fixated on his armour, to the exlcusion of what was really important, controlling territory.

An equal points force of infantry will almost always beat any armour sent to face it.

Jeff Heidman

[DukesterMM]

man my mailbox was full. tanks (yuk yuk yuk) for all your advice guys.